Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

[Flappy Pannus]

Strange they only now choosing 6 nm for chip revision, that's a bit behind the curve IMO. 5nm capacity offering much better scaling for their larger chip should be available no problem by then. Wonder whats reasoning behind such decision, maybe with skyrocketing chip design cost and their lower production scale still prohibits going to more cutting edge nodes? or series S would scale "too much" (bus width etc )at 5nm.

As I speculated these ideas may have come years ago, the outlook in 2020/2021 may have been far more guarded than now. So who knows what node it will actually be on.

If it is still projected to be 6nm, and still going to be $499 but the only change is 2TB of storage with no optical drive, either MS knows something about the PS5 Pro's expected price, or they're delusional. My best guess at this point is these specs/price were sketched out years ago and may not be reflective of what the refresh will actually be. I don't expect a new GPU/CPU upgrades, but I don't expect $499 for the same X but with more storage.

 

[metacore]

I mean, they dont have to do a Series S revision. It shouldn't dictate what they do with Series X.

And yea, I'm a bit surprised that for something seemingly not coming til later in 2024, that they aren't going with a proper die shrink and Slim model for Series X. Yes, having to redesign the chip for 5nm would cost a chunk of money, but it's a one-time cost for something they will produce many millions of over like 5+ years. And yes, wafer costs are higher, but die shrinking a 360mm² chip should balance out really well with the significantly improved chips per wafer you get from it. There's a domino of further costs savings you get with the whole console by going with a smaller, more efficient chip as well.

I think they're just being cheap. Or made a bad bet early on that the economics wouldn't work when they might have realized later on that it actually might well have now that things have calmed down.

As I speculated these ideas may have come years ago, the outlook in 2020/2021 may have been far more guarded than now. So who knows what node it will actually be on.

If it is still projected to be 6nm, and still going to be $499 but the only change is 2TB of storage with no optical drive, either MS knows something about the PS5 Pro's expected price, or they're delusional. My best guess at this point is these specs/price were sketched out years ago and may not be reflective of what the refresh will actually be. I don't expect a new GPU/CPU upgrades, but I don't expect $499 for the same X but with more storage.

Yeah, In this scenario pricing of 4/5 nm ps5/ps5pro with detachable drive and smaller chip further shrinked on much denser node vs 6nm xbox series x/s might surprise next fall. In such outcome Microsoft just gave Sony very good pricing leeway on the plate. IF they want, on one hand the can almost defeat value proposition of series s and on the other have high end halo SKU with surprising value for themselves.

 

[Globalisateur]

I am now expecting PS5 Pro to be 4nm, discless and at 499$. If I am right this is going to be a PR disaster for MS, again.

Also 6nm XSX only in 2024?

 

[Seanspeed]

And they never made a case for it that made any sense whatsoever for me, they are themselves starting to see more and more console game going for 30fps, they are measuring the cost of improved graphics on a daily basis, and they don't see any advantage to a more powerful PS5?

Well CPU's are not going to become 2x as powerful for a Pro model, so it really depends where the bottlenecks are.

And again, it's not that they dont see any advantage for a more powerful mode. This is a strawman. Their issue is that it doesn't make sense for other reasons. Reasons they've already outlined.

 

[techuse]

I am now expecting PS5 Pro to be 4nm, discless and at 499$. If I am right this is going to be a PR disaster for MS, again.

Also 6nm XSX only in 2024?

Microsoft will not price a discless Series X at 499 if Sony launches a more powerful PS5 at that same price point.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

I can't really see a PS5 Pro launching at $500. 5nm wafers are a good deal more expensive than 7nm ($16k vs $10k at first glance.) Sure, quantity per wafer will offset that somewhat, but so will error rates generally favouring more mature nodes.

The likelihood is that the base PS5's ~700GB wouldn't cut the mustard for a Pro model, and so NAND costs will inevitably be at least double the base model. Even if one or both models transition to purely non-soldered.

14gbps GDDR6 would also be inadequate for a more powerful GPU, particularly if it's more RT focused. Infinity cache can offset the need for especially high speeds, but I expect 18gbps at the very least.

Factor in that purchasers of the Pro are likely more willing to pay a premium, and this can be used in some capacity to afford lower profit margins on a base model.

I firmly expect $600 at launch. And as an early buyer of the PS3, currently dwelling in an era where a Freddo costs about a grand, I'll be plonking that money down quite happily.

 

[Seanspeed]

I can't really see a PS5 Pro launching at $500. 5nm wafers are a good deal more expensive than 7nm ($16k vs $10k at first glance.) Sure, quantity per wafer will offset that somewhat, but so will error rates generally favouring more mature nodes.

Quantity per wafer wont actually be better. We're not talking about a shrink, we're talking about making a much 'bigger' chip, process-equalized. Ultimate chip size is likely to be similar or even bigger than OG PS5, while being on a much more expensive process.

$500 for PS5 Pro isn't realistic. Especially when there's literally no competition from MS. Sony is going to push what they think they can get away with.

 

[metacore]

Next year many cutting edge TSMC clients will move to 3nm, lifting much of 5nm capacity. I don't think those initial wafer prices will hold.

If PS5pro has detachable drive too, that gives another leeway in BOM. IMO 499-599 is doable, depends how far they will push gpu/ram/cooling.

 

[Overstander]

in actuality Xbox before Sony could release a realy strong console like in 1500€ range but release it anyway for 1000€ . Lets say a zen 4 CPU with the best GPU AMD has to offer - something like this.. Sure normaly it would make you cry for every console sold and you´d hope not to sell millions then BUT currently Xbox is outsold by PS5 by 10:1..
So no danger of selling all of a sudden millions of your super duper subsidised console. But it would gain them again some track and also just have a system that almost nobody owns but anyway would be present in the now a days so importend tech talk comparisions on youtube. Quite like RTX 4090s in those videos...
I dont know how that wafer industry works but my guess would be that from those wafers they could collect the faulty ones that do not qualify for usage in that Elite Console but use them with deactivated CUs for a lesser console (that still would outperform Series X) and have that one more reasonably priced.
So kind of the same strategy they had this gen with a lesser and a better console but the whole idea boosted to extreme. With all those acquisitions and spend BILLIONS they could afford such an approach and i realy think it would give them a better marketshare at the end. The better spend money i would say.

 

[iroboto]

Well CPU's are not going to become 2x as powerful for a Pro model, so it really depends where the bottlenecks are.

And again, it's not that they dont see any advantage for a more powerful mode. This is a strawman. Their issue is that it doesn't make sense for other reasons. Reasons they've already outlined.

Agreed and that’s sort of the issue here.

The benefit that of a pro model over a new generation: Doubling of frame rate requires doubling of both the existing cpu and GPU and memory bandwidth.

This is neigh impossible at the price points that a pro model would suggest.

Increasing resolution and improving RT is probably where this pro model will sit; but I’m not really sure how much advantage it will realistically have over the base versions once you factor in DRS.

It won’t keep them from using FSR. So image quality isn’t going to be monumentally better. Frame rate and resolution will be more stable, but that’s about it.

This won’t nearly be as good last generations midgen refresh that had a 4x increase in graphical power.

 

[snc]

This won’t nearly be as good last generations midgen refresh that had a 4x increase in graphical power.

ps4pro gpu was like 2,28x faster than ps4, cpu was only marginaly faster and yet difference was quite big (usualy 4kcb or 1440p vs 1080), this time difference will be even bigger (not in terms of raw power) as usualy people have 4k tv with ps5 and games that are in internal resolution range 900p-1200p looks quite bad on 4k tvs

 

[Globalisateur]

Latest news from Kepler is that he hasn't heard of any 6nm XSX/XSS. He thinks the mid-gen leak could be an old cancelled project.

He also thinks they might release their "next-gen" consoles (XSX 2 and XSS 2) sooner than 2028 date.

After X1X releasing one year after Pro, MS might want to repeat the same strategy again: Create a marketing buzz that a more powerful console will soon release while trying to reduce any positive noise for PS5 Pro. That strategy could work very well for their Xbox fans.

They would also very likely copy PS5 Pro discless + detacheable disc alleged strategy.

 

[iroboto]

ps4pro gpu was like 2,28x faster than ps4, cpu was only marginaly faster and yet difference was quite big (usualy 4kcb or 1440p vs 1080), this time difference will be even bigger (not in terms of raw power) as usualy people have 4k tv with ps5 and games that are in internal resolution range 900p-1200p looks quite bad on 4k tvs

RDNA 3 - the TF number isn’t exactly the same. It’s still 64 shaders per CU. They’ve just done some SIMD work to double it, it’s technically not the same. It’s still a step in the right direction, but I don’t believe the pro spec should 4X the power over PS5.

I’m still excited to see a pro model. I just have no idea how they want to market this.

 

[snc]

RDNA 3 - the TF number isn’t exactly the same. It’s still 64 shaders per CU. They’ve just done some SIMD work to double it, it’s technically not the same. It’s still a step in the right direction, but I don’t believe the pro spec should 4X the power over PS5.

I’m still excited to see a pro model. I just have no idea how they want to market this.

I think nobody expect 4x in power ? It will be around 2x for 100$ (guess) more, will have much better perf/price ratio also fsr2 from 1440p looks much better than from 1080p

 

[one]

The target spec of PS5 Pro will depend on how serious Sony is about PSVR2 (and beyond with the micro display Apple Vision Pro uses). 60+ fps for a PS5 game with no graphical compromise sounds reasonable.

 

[Tkumpathenurpahl]

Agreed and that’s sort of the issue here.

The benefit that of a pro model over a new generation: Doubling of frame rate requires doubling of both the existing cpu and GPU and memory bandwidth.

This is neigh impossible at the price points that a pro model would suggest.

Increasing resolution and improving RT is probably where this pro model will sit; but I’m not really sure how much advantage it will realistically have over the base versions once you factor in DRS.

It won’t keep them from using FSR. So image quality isn’t going to be monumentally better. Frame rate and resolution will be more stable, but that’s about it.

This won’t nearly be as good last generations midgen refresh that had a 4x increase in graphical power.

Should a Pro release, it'll be interesting to see how things pan out. A good deal of games already have both 30 and 60 FPS modes, so it'll be cool to see how frequently we get the 60fps modes at 30fps IQ levels.

It's also not necessarily the case that doubling CPU power is going to be vital, given the 40fps modes that we've seen some games hit on VRR compatible screens. Solid 40fps to flakier 60fps would probably call for slightly less than 1.5x CPU performance.

Nonetheless, I don't foresee a ~1.5x improvement in the CPU of a Pro model. The architecture is likely to remain exactly the same, and I think taking the "free" clockspeed increase from 7nm to 5nm is likely to be all we see on that front. So we're probably looking at ~4GHz.

Maybe some additional cache here and there might help it punch a bit above its weight. But given Sony's approach to BC, they'll have to tread carefully here, as any additional cache is a cost they would likely have to be burdened with for the PS6. Which is to say, I don't think 3D V-cache is terribly likely. As much as I'd love it because I'm a chip stacking fanboy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[BitByte]

I was watching the latest digital foundry direct and it was really weird how some members are against the pro consoles. Some were even concerned that Microsoft is choosing not release one? It's all very weird tbh. With regards to the potential ps5 pro leaked specs, that seems like a pretty expensive machine. Do we really think sony will release a $599 machine in this economy?

 

[Seanspeed]

I was watching the latest digital foundry direct and it was really weird how some members are against the pro consoles. Some were even concerned that Microsoft is choosing not release one? It's all very weird tbh. With regards to the potential ps5 pro leaked specs, that seems like a pretty expensive machine. Do we really think sony will release a $599 machine in this economy?

In this economy? People are buying up these $400-500 consoles like hotcakes already. Demand for gaming hardware is incredibly high.

Heck, I dont even think it'd only be $599, unless it's a disc-less version, with another $99 disc drive add-on. It's not just gonna be a more expensive chip, it's also likely to have more memory, more storage, more robust cooling, etc. Plus they need enough distance between it and the base PS5 in price.

I think if ever there were a time to test out a $600-700 console again, it's now. Not saying I'd be glad to see it by any means, but I dont think it's unrealistic from Sony's and the market's perspective.

 

[BitByte]

In this economy? People are buying up these $400-500 consoles like hotcakes already. Demand for gaming hardware is incredibly high.

Heck, I dont even think it'd only be $599, unless it's a disc-less version, with another $99 disc drive add-on. It's not just gonna be a more expensive chip, it's also likely to have more memory, more storage, more robust cooling, etc. Plus they need enough distance between it and the base PS5 in price.

I think if ever there were a time to test out a $600-700 console again, it's now. Not saying I'd be glad to see it by any means, but I dont think it's unrealistic from Sony's and the market's perspective.

$700? Surely Sony wouldn't delve into the depths of madness. At that point, just build a pc for $300 more that will completely outperform the pro. By the time the pro releases, I expect the PS5 to be either officially $449 or $399.

 

[Seanspeed]

$700? Surely Sony wouldn't delve into the depths of madness. At that point, just build a pc for $300 more that will completely outperform the pro. By the time the pro releases, I expect the PS5 to be either officially $449 or $399.

Most people playing on console aren't doing so cuz they cant afford a gaming PC, but because they're just used to or prefer using a console.

And yea, if Sony reduce price of the base PS5 to some degree, then maybe there's scope for a lower Pro price, but as of now, yea, I dont think $700 for a PS5 Pro w/disc drive to be out of the ballpark of possible at all. PS5 is already quite a capable system, it's not like last gen when PS4/XB1 were kind of struggling, so PS5 Pro could easily be sold as a premium enthusiast option that comes with the appropriate price tag.