Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

[rntongo]

VF US isn't a first party Playstation game. I'm only talking about first party releases. Nobody brought up Virtua fighter in this conversation because it's out of the scope of a discussion about first party output. The only time I brought up KI when you asked what 7 games were exclusive, and when I made the point that Xbox has a more diverse first party library. But you seam to think I'm saying all of XGS output are all perfect games, when all I'm saying is that Xbox has a diverse first party time up, with plenty of "good" titles and more releases this year than Playstation. But that hasn't been enough to capture the mindshare of consumers.

KI was released in 2013!!! Thats 10 years ago!! Someone could say Sony has Killzone and thus has a diverse first party output. The fact you brought up a game that Xbox has thoroughly neglected, released at the start of last gen is proof Xbox really needs to work out its software strategy better. I think what you meant to say is they have great IPs. Which they do but the quality of games they have been releasing has been mid. Look at the first avowed reveal and then the gameplay trailer. That game may end up like Redfall. My hope is with Elder Scrolls 6, Gears 6, Fable, Contraband, Indiana Jones and Everwild. If they deliver those this gen and well done they'll have salvaged something from a very bad start. The new Marvel Blade title is coming out 2027 so not even worth discussing.

 

[Nesh]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, then. As I contend that Forza, Hifi Rush and Starfield are all good games. And while you can dismiss Hifi Rush as being too niche, I don't think racing games nor western RPGs are niche genres. Forza is clearly one of the best racing games released this year. And Starfield falls behind BG3 in the WRPG genre, it's still a good entry in the genre.

That's a very weak lineup. AoE is a niche with zero wow factor. Redfall is mediocre. Killer Instinct AE is niche and old. Hi Fi Rush is a great game but definitely not a system seller. These games barely create enough interest. For the majority they are insignificant. From your list only Forza and Starfield are noteworthy as IPs that define XBOX as a proposal for the market at large.

 

[JPT]

As soon as I saw the GPU specs of the PS5 I was certain there was going to be a PS5 pro. Like 100% certain. It wasnt overly powerful but powerful enough to usher in the new gen as the base configuration on which games would be developed. In hindsight was exceptionally smart from Sony. Consider the longer software development cycles for games and a pro console with higher fps performance makes sense. People are going to want to play GTA 6 at 4K and higher fps. Thats going to be the play on pro consoles, you get higher performance. And they're going to sell out. Sony is basically doing what it did and worked well with the PS4. They're going to drop the OG PS5 significantly in price then release the pro console at the current PS5 price or around there and then ride out the last 3-4 years of the gen offering gamers excellent performance. Everyone gets 4K gaming so whether its the base PS5 or the pro you're both playing 4K games. The difference is fps.

Very much your view and not very much that supports it with the information that is public now, from what I know at least.

Sony might drop the price on PS5 and release PS5Pro at the "current" price, but all indications are that they will have to sell with loss. I know there was the meaningful cost reduction discussion, there does not seem to be any indication to see that there is enough to do a 200 usd price drop, even if Sony decides to sell at a loss.

Not sure how you see that last gen release of PS4Pro was a success for Sony, other than maybe it kept a few from going to PC, but sales looks to have been low...
Albeit, it might be the classic put something expensive on the menu and then something a nice level below, but very close in "features" as the expensive item. That way you sway people to go for the 2nd most expensive, since it so close to the expensive one. but cheaper.

People wanting to play GTA6 at 4k and high fps will buy it for PC, most people I doubt really cares about 4k and 60fps enough to buy up in the console world. They might buy the "better" console because its the perceived better one for one reason or other.

 

[see colon]

KI was released in 2013!!! Thats 10 years ago!!

The Anniversary Edition came out last month. The update changed lots of stuff, including most of the menus, tons of balance tweaks, upgrades to rendering including changing from DX11 to DX12, resolution changes for Series S and X, matchmaking, rank modes, and a bunch more. While it's an update to the previous release, if you already owned it, this is more akin akin to an HD remaster.

Someone could say Sony has Killzone and thus has a diverse first party output. The fact you brought up a game that Xbox has thoroughly neglected, released at the start of last gen is proof Xbox really needs to work out its software strategy better.

Killzone hasn't had a release, remaster, or update recently, though. Things have to be put out for them to be output. KI came out in 2013, had 2 seasons of DLC content, a definitive edition release in 2016, released on Steam in 2017, Arcade 1Up releases of the arcade games in 2018 and then the Pro model in 2022, and the Anniversary Edition released last month. I wouldn't exactly say they are neglecting an IP, though I do wish a new game or 3rd season would release. It's still on another level compared to what Sony are doing with Killzone, Resistance, or The Getaway.

Which they do but the quality of games they have been releasing has been mid.

In 2021 they were the highest rated publisher according to metacritic, with a higher average score than any publisher ever. That high score still stands as the highest ever. This year, Xbox released more games that are 80%+ (Classified as "good" by most definitions) than Playstation has.

Look at the first avowed reveal and then the gameplay trailer.

I wouldn't try to glean any information from a non-interactive gameplay trailer for a game without a solid release date. Microsoft has a history at this point of presenting trailers that aren't representative of the actual product.

@Nesh , I think we still disagree that it's a weak line up. Given that, even with only 2 games that appeal to "the market at large", that's still twice the output of Playstation Studios. And Playstaion's lone non-VR release, Marvel Spider-Man 2, was nominated for awards in 12 categories between The Game Awards and The Golden Joysticks, and won 0. Forza, Starfield, and niche unknown game Hi-Fi Rush won a combined 5. Spider-Man 2 didn't win or even get nominated for The Golden Joysticks Playstation Game of the Year. Multiplatform game Resident Evil 4 won that category.

 

[rntongo]

Very much your view and not very much that supports it with the information that is public now, from what I know at least.

Sony might drop the price on PS5 and release PS5Pro at the "current" price, but all indications are that they will have to sell with loss. I know there was the meaningful cost reduction discussion, there does not seem to be any indication to see that there is enough to do a 200 usd price drop, even if Sony decides to sell at a loss.

First thing is the PS5 has been profitable since 2021. You can read about it here And more so since the cost of memory and the SSD has gone down as well since 2021. You can read about it here and here. The biggest difference between the PS5 and the PS5 pro is going to be the APU. The PS5 pro will have roughly the same number of CUs as the current Series X(slightly more around 60-64) on a newer 5nm node so savings on silicon, as well Xbox Series X will be moving to 5nm for similar sized and number of CUs. So its not like they're putting a RX 7950 XT into the machine. Its likely going to be an underclocked 7800XT(marketed as the ultimate 1440p GPU at high frame rates on PC).

Besides that the cost of memory, SSD, box, casing, electrical(They're sticking to a 256 Bit Bus so no expensive circuitry) are all going to be the same as the base PS5. Sony is no longer doing what it did with the PS3. They make boxes that are profitable very quickly. If the PS5 pro is sold at a loss it will be temporary as the cost of the APU goes down until the next gen. And they wont release the PS5 pro unless they can sell the PS5 belowe $400 while maintaining a profit.

Not sure how you see that last gen release of PS4Pro was a success for Sony, other than maybe it kept a few from going to PC, but sales looks to have been low...
Albeit, it might be the classic put something expensive on the menu and then something a nice level below, but very close in "features" as the expensive item. That way you sway people to go for the 2nd most expensive, since it so close to the expensive one. but cheaper.

Its not me but Sony looked at the sales and performance of the PS4 pro and decided it was success. You can read about it here. The PS4 pro was outselling the PS4 slim by February 2017 which itself was selling exceptionally well just a few months after they both launched in late 2016.

As well, there were reports(Here and Here) that Sony was working on a pro model alongside the original PS5. But it was most likely Sony designing the PS5 with cost in mind and planning to eventually release a pro model. The reporters simply misunderstood Sony's plans and thought they were releasing two models at once(which didnt make any sense from a software development perspective). You can see this in fact PS5 GPU was not all that impressive. They didn't spend much on the SoC this time, and its paid off. The PS5 pro will have the higher frame performance that they can market.

People wanting to play GTA6 at 4k and high fps will buy it for PC, most people I doubt really cares about 4k and 60fps enough to buy up in the console world. They might buy the "better" console because its the perceived better one for one reason or other.

They're not marketing it to PC gamers. They're marketing it to casual gamers that want the best casual gaming experience. These people just want to buy a fancy box, download a game or buy a disc and play. No configuration for the settings of a game to get max optimal settings or download drivers or any other configurations and optimization. These are the people who bought the PS4 pro because it was the "best" console gaming box. Notice it wasn't called PS4 4K although 4K was one of its main selling points. Same thing with the PS5 pro. Higher fps will be one of its main selling points or HW accelerated AI upscaling or whatever but it will simply be called the pro!! And people will buy it because it plays games better than the PS5 and is priced competitively. Thats why if anyone is expecting Sony to sell a discless PS5 pro at $599, they're in for a serious disappointment. Sony got burnt real hard with the PS3 they're never doing that again.

 

[rntongo]

The Anniversary Edition came out last month. The update changed lots of stuff, including most of the menus, tons of balance tweaks, upgrades to rendering including changing from DX11 to DX12, resolution changes for Series S and X, matchmaking, rank modes, and a bunch more. While it's an update to the previous release, if you already owned it, this is more akin akin to an HD remaster.

Yeah its just like an HD remaster but you'd be hard pressed to see any differences really. They should just do the needful and give this great IP a sequel. They can even add guest characters from their other IPs. They are sitting on Gold with this IP. Its something they can do every 10 years.

In 2021 they were the highest rated publisher according to metacritic, with a higher average score than any publisher ever. That high score still stands as the highest ever. This year, Xbox released more games that are 80%+ (Classified as "good" by most definitions) than Playstation has.

You're right they did win that. I think it can be a subjective experience, cant speak for everyone but for me 2021 wasn't anything to be happy/memorable about. I think its a case of where the figures lack a qualitative aspect. Forza Horizon 5 was a decent release that year, I personally enjoyed it, but nothing I had never experience. But Psychonauts was meh to me, Flight Simulator(Excellent title tbh but how many people really use it for gaming? I tried playing it and couldnt land the plane once I got it up, it was nice to look at but steep learning curve). Besides this award I havent had any real world conversation where someone can string together "Xbox" and "Publisher of the year". I cant put my finger on it but there is something Xbox really needs to work on.

I wouldn't try to glean any information from a non-interactive gameplay trailer for a game without a solid release date. Microsoft has a history at this point of presenting trailers that aren't representative of the actual product.

Agreed. Its still one of my most anticipated titles. I just wish they stuck to the same art style as the reveal trailer. It has so much potential. I will judge it after playing it.

 

[Davros]

and couldnt land the plane once I got it up,

Yes, we've heard that about you

 

[see colon]

They are sitting on Gold with this IP. Its something they can do every 10 years.

I dunno, I heard it was niche and irrelevant.

 

[rntongo]

Yes, we've heard that about you

You're laughing but I'd like to see you land a Boeing 737. I tried

 

[techuse]

Xbox has had a severe lack of system sellers. Halo Infinite was the only potential one but they dropped the ball. Until they remedy this, it doesn’t matter what hardware they release TBH. I can’t even begin to fathom the logic behind their decision making these past two gens after doing so many things right with the 360.

 

[Nesh]

@Nesh , I think we still disagree that it's a weak line up. Given that, even with only 2 games that appeal to "the market at large", that's still twice the output of Playstation Studios. And Playstaion's lone non-VR release, Marvel Spider-Man 2, was nominated for awards in 12 categories between The Game Awards and The Golden Joysticks, and won 0. Forza, Starfield, and niche unknown game Hi-Fi Rush won a combined 5. Spider-Man 2 didn't win or even get nominated for The Golden Joysticks Playstation Game of the Year. Multiplatform game Resident Evil 4 won that category.

The output is perceptually inflated and in comparison apples to oranges. MS's company acquisitions include more studios per group, which are self sufficient without MS's help, and many of the projects were in production as third parties and became exclusive under MS' management. Secondly some of these projects are significantly smaller in scale in comparison to Sony's who are funded directly by them, since, unlike MS's ABK and Zenimax, the size of their operations are not self sufficient. For example ND and Guerilla became the powerhouses under Sony whereas ABK and Zenimax were pre existing self created self sufficient powerhouses. In addition if we begin adding rereleases and remasters Sony's output increases as well but thats not a good indication of output. Since Sony doesn't have the finances to buy the studios, Sony funds third party games like DS2 and FF16. MS owns the IPs and projects by claiming ownership of the companies themselves. So when we say "MS output" it means something different from "Sony output".

 

[RDGoodla]

Is the next 2026 xbox about refreshing series X and S? Series X tiny?

Mobile series S?

A new APU comparable to Series S in 2/3nm can have reasonable power consumption compared with Steam Deck OLED 6nm. However, how to achieve RAM 224 GB/s with mobile RAM LPDDR?

Is it possible we have bus of 192bits or more with LPDDR5/LPDDR5X? LPDDR6 spec is still unclear.

 

[see colon]

The output is perceptually inflated and in comparison apples to oranges. MS's company acquisitions include more studios per group, which are self sufficient without MS's help, and many of the projects were in production as third parties and became exclusive under MS' management. Secondly some of these projects are significantly smaller in scale in comparison to Sony's who are funded directly by them, since, unlike MS's ABK and Zenimax, the size of their operations are not self sufficient. For example ND and Guerilla became the powerhouses under Sony whereas ABK and Zenimax were pre existing self created self sufficient powerhouses. In addition if we begin adding rereleases and remasters Sony's output increases as well but thats not a good indication of output. Since Sony doesn't have the finances to buy the studios, Sony funds third party games like DS2 and FF16. MS owns the IPs and projects by claiming ownership of the companies themselves. So when we say "MS output" it means something different from "Sony output".

Why would there be an exclusion for companies Microsoft purchased? Should be exclude games made by Studios Sony purchased, like Insomniac?
Microsoft funds and publishes games it doesn't own the studio or IP from. They don't own Moon Studios (Ori), MDHR (Cuphead), Capcom (Dead Rising 4), Asobo (Flight Simulator) or Insomniac (Sunset Overdrive). MS Paid over a billion dollars for games on Gamepass. I'm sure there were large checks written to the developers of Scorn, Atomic Heart, and Lies of P.
Why does it matter where the money comes from? Sony doesn't just own a video game company. They are a media company and a consumer electronics company as well. Also, Xbox is operated as a standalone profit and loss business within Microsoft
What remasters and rereleases did Sony release this year? There were some classics added to PSPlus's tiers for streaming, but.... They were already available on Playstation Now before the name change, they were just moved from the old service to the new service. So if we want to count games Xbox released to Gamepass Core as new releases, I guess we can do that, to, right?

Is the next 2026 xbox about refreshing series X and S? Series X tiny?

The rumors about Xbox starting next generation early might be missing a detail that I think is somewhat important. If Microsoft releases a Series 2 in 2026, and Playstation has a PS5Pro that it's competing with, Microsoft doesn't have to release any Series 2 exclusive software, and just treat it like a pro model as well. Except, when we get to a situation like with Baldurs Gate 3, where Series S is holding up a timely release. Then, with this rolling generation, you make that game Series 2 exclusive.

 

[Nesh]

Why would there be an exclusion for companies Microsoft purchased? Should be exclude games made by Studios Sony purchased, like Insomniac?
Microsoft funds and publishes games it doesn't own the studio or IP from. They don't own Moon Studios (Ori), MDHR (Cuphead), Capcom (Dead Rising 4), Asobo (Flight Simulator) or Insomniac (Sunset Overdrive). MS Paid over a billion dollars for games on Gamepass. I'm sure there were large checks written to the developers of Scorn, Atomic Heart, and Lies of P.
Why does it matter where the money comes from? Sony doesn't just own a video game company. They are a media company and a consumer electronics company as well. Also, Xbox is operated as a standalone profit and loss business within Microsoft
What remasters and rereleases did Sony release this year? There were some classics added to PSPlus's tiers for streaming, but.... They were already available on Playstation Now before the name change, they were just moved from the old service to the new service. So if we want to count games Xbox released to Gamepass Core as new releases, I guess we can do that, to, right?

I explained the difference. Take it or leave it

 

[rntongo]

Xbox has had a severe lack of system sellers. Halo Infinite was the only potential one but they dropped the ball. Until they remedy this, it doesn’t matter what hardware they release TBH. I can’t even begin to fathom the logic behind their decision making these past two gens after doing so many things right with the 360.

They dont think through the software development cycle when making these boxes like they did with the 360, there's a huge disconnect at Xbox between different business units. Notice the disconnect with the Xbox One. They had a great launch line up yet were telling gamers to eff off and it wasn't a gaming machine. So the business function in charge of delivering games(likely from the 360 days) was doing a good job at that point but the others were trying to make a "home entertainment device" or whatever it was. Fast forward to the Series consoles and you have different business functions pushing different agendas. Likely the teams that brought good games died after the launch of the Xbox One. Now you have people trying to drive subscriber growth(Series S, GamePass deals with publishers), you have a hw team that is excellent(Series X) but the people that made good choices in games and software development from the 360 up to Xbox One launch are gone or not in the right positions anymore.

And these same people that have been making mistakes likely want to make another box in 2026 without thinking hard about where the software is going to come from, how long it takes to make certain titles and what devs are actually building. Sony on the other hand is spot on at the moment, they know by making a pro console in 2024, it doesnt matter what competitors release in terms of hw. Developers are going to be targeting the 75mn plus PS5 and Series consoles not some brand new console in 2026. And the pro will simply play PS5 games better for 3-4 years so not a lot of work for developers. And once the new gen starts in 2028 it will be cross gen games for about 2 years(unless a pandemic happens again or something). So imagine launching a "new gen" box in 2026 only for it to be a cross gen machine up until 2029/2030. It doesn't align with the roadmaps of software developers. Its a catastrophe waiting to happen really. And knowing the current teams at Xbox they could launch two new boxes in 2026.

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

The rumors about Xbox starting next generation early might be missing a detail that I think is somewhat important. If Microsoft releases a Series 2 in 2026, and Playstation has a PS5Pro that it's competing with, Microsoft doesn't have to release any Series 2 exclusive software, and just treat it like a pro model as well. Except, when we get to a situation like with Baldurs Gate 3, where Series S is holding up a timely release. Then, with this rolling generation, you make that game Series 2 exclusive.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards something like this if MS release a mid-gen device. I'd be really rather surprised if the Series X wouldn't suffice as a baseline for a fair few years though.

I think it would be wise of MS to support the Series S with first party games for the duration of the generation, but I think dropping mandatory Series S support for third parties would be reasonable come 2025/2026.

Can someone remind me of the Series X memory configuration please? I want to ponder on possible Series XL memory configuration.

 

[Riddlewire]

Can someone remind me of the Series X memory configuration please? I want to ponder on possible Series XL memory configuration.

From iroboto's post on the subject.

1) No, the bus doesn’t work like that. There are 6 chips with 2GB of memory and 4 chips with 1GB of memory. Each chip has 32 bit lanes to the cache. So when you access all 10 chips simultaneously it’s 10x32 which becomes 320 bits. If memory is stored in the remaining half of the 6 chips, it will pull 6x32bits which becomes 192bit pull per clock. You cannot add them together.

2) the chips are all the same speed. So the concept of fast and slow ram is a misnomer here. The series X can access all 10 chips or 6 chips. The reason is how we store data into memory, to maximize bandwidth we split the data over as many chips as possible so that in a single clock cycle we can pull all the chips at once. So you will always write to chips evenly. Once the 1GB portion of each chip is filled, it will start filling the remaining 6 chips they have 1GB of storage remaining and data will now be divided over 6 chips.
Thus we get to accessing 10 chips (320bits) or 6 chips (192bits). You can consider this a high bandwidth pool and a lower bandwidth pool. The actual memory speed operates the same between the two pools.

3) it’s the same as any GDDR5 of that. The slower variant, the faster variant would be significantly more expensive for minimal bandwidth gain.

 

[Tkumpathenurple]

Groovy, thank you both.

Okay, so a mid-gen release with minimal cost to MS could quite easily consist of 20GB of memory at a flat 560GB/s. Increase it to 16 or 18 gbps GDDR6, and they'd have 640 or 720 GB/s bandwidth across the board.

Infinity Cache would be a great addition too, as it seemed to do wonders for RDNA2 performance, bandwidth in particular. But would the addition of IC render 16/18gbps bump a waste?

 

[QPlayer]

Groovy, thank you both.

Okay, so a mid-gen release with minimal cost to MS could quite easily consist of 20GB of memory at a flat 560GB/s. Increase it to 16 or 18 gbps GDDR6, and they'd have 640 or 720 GB/s bandwidth across the board.

Infinity Cache would be a great addition too, as it seemed to do wonders for RDNA2 performance, bandwidth in particular. But would the addition of IC render 16/18gbps bump a waste?

What would 16 vs 20 GB memory bring to the table? No shit... Technically, it would bring more if the promised Sampler Feedback Streaming function was properly used for the current Series consoles, which frees up a lot of bandwidth, or the INT4 programming function.

Should I buy an intermediate console that can only do a little more than the original hardware? No way! It should not be a mid gen, it should be a technically well-utilized current gen.

 

[Riddlewire]

What would 16 vs 20 GB memory bring to the table?

I had a response, but then I thought about it and considered the benefits to be cancelled out by a pre-existing condition.

I was going to say that it would eliminate the necessity of dividing data between high and low bandwidth pools, which should make development a bit easier.

Except that they would still have to make games for the launch version, too. So that work would still have to be done at some point.
Although there would still be some benefit to having all the data (including the extra 25%) at full bandwidth.