Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

I think console gamers should want the best performance they can get at that price point. LIke I said in a previous post we have games like FF16 that run at 720p 30fps. Should gamers be happy if a ps5 pro or xbox seres xx gets them to 720p 60fps ?
Isn't that exactly what the last Pro consoles did? Doubled performance for rudimentary improvements, not getting anywhere close to high-end PC performance. These are mid-gen refreshes we're talkijg about; not a new generation or a new Elite class of 'professional console' priced at $1000+. I guess that's a different discussion. ;)
 
I thought that was the issue Iroboto was concerned with, consumer overload. For devs it's no worse than Pro or the 4 SKus of previous or targeting PCs. Perhaps even easier, if XBSX+ is XBSX at solid 60 fps with better RT, the kind of upgrades being talked about here. The plus would just run XBSX better without being a particular new target (which is what the Pros were).
Yea which is the problem. It’s very difficult to market that to consumers. You’ll get better ray tracing, but it’s hard to sell that which most players can not see. Selling 8K is much easier for instance.

The midgen refreshes if they arrive are going to land much more awkwardly than last generation: not enough power to really get away from what’s there today, and not really anything to showcase its marketing grunt.

You’re really just selling on Spec, which is a weird thing to do in console land. If PS5 pro does launch, people will point out that it has the same number of CUs as XSX. And if XSX+ launches, there’s no spec that it could release with that would make sense, other than to jump clock speed, because doubling 52CU is insanity, and shrinking and boosting clock speed isn’t worthy of a midgen refresh - very tough to market.

Oddly 8K is the easiest marketing move, and no one owns one of those. A new console should grant you something new, the existing ones do 30, 60, 120fps and resolutions up to 8K. Though they don’t really offer 8K gaming.

It may be normal for PC users to look and purchase off spec, but a singular device marketed and on its own usually cannot unless it’s part of a family of devices. For phones, Max models have larger screens, and Pro models have better cameras.

There’s just got to be more than better spec. Very curious how Sony will position Pro, but I just don’t see a spot for MS.
 
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The major spec is framerate. XBSX120 - up to 120 frames per second! Smoother! Faster! More accurate! 120 is far more prevalent than 8K and actually provides a more discernible improvement.
 
The major spec is framerate. XBSX120 - up to 120 frames per second! Smoother! Faster! More accurate! 120 is far more prevalent than 8K and actually provides a more discernible improvement.
So every game from now on will always be forced to have a 120fps mode on XBSX120?
 
I think microsoft will not bring refresh not because it will be too hard to target 3 specs (I think with introduction of new more powerful machine its not problem, just run quality mode with double fps etc or even do nothing), but they see xss sels better than xsx so they wont bother. Also popularity of highend pc is not problematic for them as gamepass is also on pc, for sony its other story.
 
Isn't that exactly what the last Pro consoles did? Doubled performance for rudimentary improvements, not getting anywhere close to high-end PC performance. These are mid-gen refreshes we're talkijg about; not a new generation or a new Elite class of 'professional console' priced at $1000+. I guess that's a different discussion. ;)
Yeah basically. There going to keep it simple imo. Offer a bigger/more performant gpu that will increase res/fps/RT'ing that is not radically more expensive than the PS5. Like $100-$200 more.
 
I mean the pro consoles last time were the same Jaguar CPU's with a higher clock...and a bigger GPU.

I don't see why they wouldn't follow a similar thing this time. The GPU is what's going to give you a PS5 game but a better resolution, fps, raytracing. Which is almost certainly what the selling point will be.
I imagine there's scope to improve CPU a fair bit more this time around if they want to. I dont think there'd be any compatibility issues with using Zen 4/5 or something instead of Zen 2.

With XB1X/PS4 Pro, there were really no other options than to continue with Jaguar.

I think for many of us, the main contention is really the GPU. Can AMD provide a large enough improvement in performance/capabilities to justify a 'Pro' version without blowing up the cost?
 
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I imagine there's scope to improve CPU a fair bit more this time around if they want to. I dont think there'd be any compatibility issues with using Zen 4/5 or something instead of Zen 2.

With XB1X/PS4 Pro, there were really no other options than to continue with Jaguar.

I think for many of us, the main contention is really the GPU. Can AMD provide a large enough improvement in performance/capabilities to justify a 'Pro' version without blowing up the cost?
You’re looking at a 6950xt level GPU as the bare minimum to double performance. Neither AMD nor Nvidia offer that level of performance at a power level suitable for a console.
 
You’re looking at a 6950xt level GPU as the bare minimum to double performance. Neither AMD nor Nvidia offer that level of performance at a power level suitable for a console.
6800XT is basically double the TF if we're talking about PS5.

And a 4070 can basically match a 6800XT already, which is a cut down, 294mm², 200w GPU. With a bit of downclocking and lower power target, they could probably more densely pack in enough GPU hardware to get similar performance in a ~320-340mm², ~220w, 5nm SoC.

It's AMD that I'm not sure can do it, which is what really matters.

But yea, if we're talking double the XSX(so 24TF RDNA2-equivalent), then yea I'd agree neither could pull it off.
 
So every game from now on will always be forced to have a 120fps mode on XBSX120?

One of the target features could be looking at those with VRR displays (I'm guessing there's likely significant overlap) and therefore uncapped frame rates.

This would a mean a lot more flexibility from a support stand point as basically you just get extra perofrmance over the base console without having to hit any specific doubling target.
 
Games getting boosted from 1440p30 to 4k60 is a nice sell.
The issue is that can Sony get the CPU uplift needed to pull that off?
 
I mean the pro consoles last time were the same Jaguar CPU's with a higher clock...and a bigger GPU.

I don't see why they wouldn't follow a similar thing this time. The GPU is what's going to give you a PS5 game but a better resolution, fps, raytracing. Which is almost certainly what the selling point will be.

Xbox one x sold better. It means weaker and cheaper solution is not attractive for high-end gamers.


You’re looking at a 6950xt level GPU as the bare minimum to double performance. Neither AMD nor Nvidia offer that level of performance at a power level suitable for a console.
3nm GPU is necessary to achieve reasonable power consumption for PS5 pro.
 
Isn't that exactly what the last Pro consoles did? Doubled performance for rudimentary improvements, not getting anywhere close to high-end PC performance. These are mid-gen refreshes we're talkijg about; not a new generation or a new Elite class of 'professional console' priced at $1000+. I guess that's a different discussion. ;)
The last gen consoles introduced higher resolutions along with new forms of upscalling.

The pro is a mixed bag staying with the same amount of ram. But the x increased ram and performance quite a lot


Here you can see the one x targeting 1800p with lows of 1500p without checkerboard rendering . ps4 pro targets a lower res but higher frame rate using checkerboard 1800p both consoles are unlocked frame rates

The one s is 900p @ 30fps and the ps4 is 1080p @ 30fps.


Cyberpunk ps4 was 1080p and xbox one s is 720-810p .

Ps4 pro is 1180p and xone x is 1674p and stays at 2112x1188 which is apparently the maximum resolution of the ps4 pro.

This isn't just resolution either , even things like ps4 pro are missing lighting and geometry that is missing from the xbox one x




So I think these were pretty big jumps. Going from 720p with fps down into the teens vs 1188p and a stable 30fps is a pretty big jump imo

It hink it would have had an even better effect if they had gone with a first gen zen processor or maybe more jaguar cores.
 
And that's after five years since the release of the first RTX cards.
There are some examples of a clear cut upgrade over the console experience that happened early on, games like Battlefield V, Wolfenstein Youngblood, Control, Minecraft RTX, Quake 2 RTX, and even Shadow of Tomb Raider.

Other impressive newer examples include: LEGO Builder's Journey, Dying Light 2, Marvel's Guardian Of The Galaxy, Bright Memory Infinite, Hitman 3, Chernobylite, Icarus, Warhammer 40K: Darktide, The Witcher 3, and The Finals.
 
I don't think some reviewers out there did anyone any favours by downplaying RT and DLSS for so long ... though you'd hope that wouldn't influence AMD engineering path.
AMD detailed their ray tracing "vision" earlier than any Youtubers, they wanted GPUs to only render select RT effects, leaving full RT to the clouds, so I don't think Youtubers influenced them at all to be honest.

With the advent of real time path tracing, and the extensive use of several combined RT effects in several games, I think AMD had to pivot, and changed their strategy somewhere along the way. We just hadn't seen the fruits of that change yet.

ray-tracing-amd-vision2.jpg


Why speculate when the Steam Hardware survey will give you exact figures?

3070: 3%
3080: 2%
3070Ti: 1.4%
3080Ti: 0.76%
4070Ti: 0.62%
4090: 0.56%
3090: 0.52%
4080: 0.4%
6800XT: 0.27%
6900XT: 0.21%
And, if you add Ray Tracing to into the mix, you get to add these GPUs: RTX2070, 2070 Super, 2080, 2080 Super, 2080Ti, 3060 and 3060Ti, this will massively increase the installed base.
 
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So Sony could just market PS5 Pro as a next generation console and win then?

Sure, if they are not going to guarantee backcompat for all existing PS5 titles?
I mean, in this day and age, thats the difference between a Pro and a Next-gen console.
A "Pro" will play everything the Base console does, and never have exclusive games.
A "Next-gen" will probably play most/all of your base/current gen games, AND have exclusive games.

Probably even more reason for MS, to not do a Pro console and jump to Next-Gen asap,
as it will give them an opportunity to leave the XSX behind.
 
Sure, if they are not going to guarantee backcompat for all existing PS5 titles?
So the next gen Xbox also would not have guaranteed backwards compatibility with previous Xbox? Why? Why does that define next generation hardware? PS2 ran all original PlayStation 5 plays almost all PS4 games and Xbox Series all XBO games.

I'm not following.
 
So the next gen Xbox also would not have guaranteed backwards compatibility with previous Xbox? Why? Why does that define next generation hardware? PS2 ran all original PlayStation 5 plays almost all PS4 games and Xbox Series all XBO games.

I'm not following.


I think Next gen can be defined as "will have games that are not playable on the previous console"
vs. an in generation "Pro" console, which has 0 exclusives, but guaranteed compatibility with all games on the previous console
 
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