Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

[eastmen]

I don't disagree, but I would add that consoles have often punched above their weight in terms of what performance the hardware delivers because devs can hone for specific configurations.

Console manufacturers exist in a uniquely privileged position where they can analyse the performance of a large number of games against specific API usage and hardware utilisations with a view to making rapid changes to APIs and hardware to alleviate bottlenecks or accelerate commonly used functions. AMD's public roadmap available today, isn't going to be a reliable basis on which to predict what AMD might produce in a years time. Console APUs are often a mix of today's tech combined with an infusion of architectural improvements to be announced.

I think this is becoming less and less the case since the xbox 360/ps3 generation. Consoles used to have exotic hardware but no longer have that. The ps4/xbox one were just amd apu's with jaguar and gcn and were quickly out classed by the same generation of video cards. Since video cards are a yearly or bi yearly cadence they were able to quickly surpass what those consoles could do.

The ps5/xbox series are just amd apu's this time with zen 2 and rdna 2. Zen 2 is already becoming a fossil in computers as we are on zen 4 now. Rdna 2 was already having issues staying competitive with Nvidia's offerings when it launched. There is no secret sauce in them.

once we account for windows over head and figuring out what settings those consoles run at vs the configurations on the pc there isn't any real punching above their weight class.


If ps5 pro is zen2/rdna 2 then it will already be half a decade old . Even if they doubled the CU's in the rdna2 it wont even be competitive with rdna 2 cards. Heck they could likely triple the count and still not be competitive with cards from that time frame.

 

[techuse]

I think this is becoming less and less the case since the xbox 360/ps3 generation. Consoles used to have exotic hardware but no longer have that. The ps4/xbox one were just amd apu's with jaguar and gcn and were quickly out classed by the same generation of video cards. Since video cards are a yearly or bi yearly cadence they were able to quickly surpass what those consoles could do.

The ps5/xbox series are just amd apu's this time with zen 2 and rdna 2. Zen 2 is already becoming a fossil in computers as we are on zen 4 now. Rdna 2 was already having issues staying competitive with Nvidia's offerings when it launched. There is no secret sauce in them.

once we account for windows over head and figuring out what settings those consoles run at vs the configurations on the pc there isn't any real punching above their weight class.


If ps5 pro is zen2/rdna 2 then it will already be half a decade old . Even if they doubled the CU's in the rdna2 it wont even be competitive with rdna 2 cards. Heck they could likely triple the count and still not be competitive with cards from that time frame.

I think it's primarily due to the reduction in exclusives and the rapid expansion of lowest common denominator, multiplatform development. Optimization all around has gone down the drain outside of a tiny handful of titles.

 

[eastmen]

I think it's primarily due to the reduction in exclusives and the rapid expansion of lowest common denominator, multiplatform development. Optimization all around has gone down the drain outside of a tiny handful of titles.

I don't know if I agree with you on that. Consoles used to be poorly designed. Look at the saturn/ps/ps2/jaguar and all those other exotic systems with multiple chips and different ways to get the most out of the systems. Also you had much shorter development cycles. Back with the ps1 and ps2 you could get multiple games out of the same studio in one generation and you rarely see that now .

 

[vjPiedPiper]

If the PS5 Pro does happen, and MS doesn't respond, but then has a next gen Xbox, with a serious "console generation" style jump
in both performance and features in 2026.

I think the conversation quickly becomes about a "True next-gen MS console vs PS5 Pro".
Do MS end up winning the 2026+ battles due to better support for actual console generations!
It will be funny as hell if Sony mess up the "console generations" thing!
after all the fuss they made about proper generations at the start of this one

 

[Remij]

If the PS5 Pro does happen, and MS doesn't respond, but then has a next gen Xbox, with a serious "console generation" style jump
in both performance and features in 2026.

I think the conversation quickly becomes about a "True next-gen MS console vs PS5 Pro".
Do MS end up winning the 2026+ battles due to better support for actual console generations!
It will be funny as hell if Sony mess up the "console generations" thing!
after all the fuss they made about proper generations at the start of this one

I think that's literally the best play for MS.

The "sell" of the Xbox consoles currently is all about GamePass. By every estimate, MS has sold far more Series S consoles than Series X (for various reasons) so already the majority of Xbox gamers out there currently aren't so much interested in the pure power, but getting access to GamePass in a nice compact console box. MS has been pushing their consumers in that direction.. since they've apparently been allocating a large amount of Series X hardware for the Azure servers rather than selling more Series X consoles.

The Series X console was symbolic in the sense that MS could claim they have the most powerful console out there... but having that be true wasn't essential to MS' real plans.. which is to make gaming more accessible to more markets with cheaper SKUs and GamePass. Right now they need market penetration, and they currently have the hardware out there to make that happen... they just need the software.. which, if you believe Microsoft, should be coming into its own in the later part of this year with Starfield, and going forward.

That's the right move. Focus on getting out great software which gets people using the ecosystem right now. Lower the manufacturing costs of the current hardware as much as possible. Improve your dev tools, get all that stuff in order. Get people confident that Xbox games are continually coming and that they are great games... and then hit them with new hardware well after the PS5 Pro, but cutting Sony's PS6 off by a year or so. Kinda like MS did with the 360 and the PS3. Get out a year or so earlier, with hardware that handily beats the PS5 Pro... and have some killer games ready... people will more likely be swayed back to Xbox that way.

By the time next gen is in full swing with both consoles out... future hardware iterations will not feel like massive improvements anymore. This time... right now... is the best time for MS to let Sony go ahead with a Pro... and just cut the PS6 off with a new console 1-1.5 years earlier.

After that... just make your new consoles generic PCs and let people upgrade whenever they want. I think console generations in the typical sense are dead after this next one.

 

[vjPiedPiper]

After that... just make your new consoles generic PCs and let people upgrade whenever they want. I think console generations in the typical sense are dead after this next one.

I Agree with just about everything you've said here, except for this point.
I actually think that there is scope for some custom work in the next gen of consoles,
specifically around the way raytracing works, specifically by providing much better support for access to the functions around RT and BVH processing.
A console with some custom HW could expose a lot more RT and BVH functionality to devs than the standard DX12 Ultimate interface.
I know this is sort of possible now, but in 2-3 years time we/ devs will have sooo much more knowledge about what works and what doesn't.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I think the conversation quickly becomes about a "True next-gen MS console vs PS5 Pro".

What do you think would Microsoft include to make it a "True next-gen MS console" rather than a iteration of the technology in Series X?

that... just make your new consoles generic PCs and let people upgrade whenever they want. I think console generations in the typical sense are dead after this next one.

How would you build a console-sized chassis with a PSU that can be upgraded, to support upgraded CPU/GPU/APU hardware? Consoles are compact because they are designed for the exact hardware they ship with. Just look at how graphics cards have ballooned in size to accommodate cooling for more powerful chips. Consoles would have been to considerably larger to accommodate what somebody might want to use and we already have the largest consoles this generation.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldlove a console that I could upgrade ever few years for better performance, but they would have to be designed differently end because users can upgrade with any parts, from a developer perspective you in an even worse position than with the variety of hardware that you are expected to optimise performance for. You may recall Nvidia experimented with an upgradable discrete GPU standard called MX for laptops, but they got limited support and may now be dead.

Designing any product to today to meet future needs requires a really good crystal ball.

 

[Shortbread]

If the PS5 Pro does happen, and MS doesn't respond, but then has a next gen Xbox, with a serious "console generation" style jump
in both performance and features in 2026.

I think the conversation quickly becomes about a "True next-gen MS console vs PS5 Pro".
Do MS end up winning the 2026+ battles due to better support for actual console generations!
It will be funny as hell if Sony mess up the "console generations" thing!
after all the fuss they made about proper generations at the start of this one

So, two years later after the PS5 Pro launches, the next-gen Xbox should change the "moah powah!" conversation in 2026? Can't the same be said when PS6 launches two years later (2028)? I mean, Xbox 360 had a full year head-start over PS3, and had better GPU performance and IQ in most games, and PS3 still end up outselling it. Plus, this time Sony PlayStation hardware has backwards compatibility, which more than likely will keep PS users firmly waiting for the next-generation of PlayStation.

Anyhow, the more than likely scenario is that Microsoft has a more-pro version of X in the works, regardless of Phil's prior statements.

 

[iroboto]

If the PS5 Pro does happen, and MS doesn't respond, but then has a next gen Xbox, with a serious "console generation" style jump
in both performance and features in 2026.

I think the conversation quickly becomes about a "True next-gen MS console vs PS5 Pro".
Do MS end up winning the 2026+ battles due to better support for actual console generations!
It will be funny as hell if Sony mess up the "console generations" thing!
after all the fuss they made about proper generations at the start of this one

I'm fairly confident that there is no Pro edition of Xbox coming.
About the only trick they can pull off is upclocking to compete (which is improbable as well, but I don't think there's technically anything crazy hardware wise about switching to dynamic clocks like Sony and going away from fixed clocks; enablement is likely just a firmware change, outside of ensuring your cooling can handle it. They've had 3 years to figure this out now), but outside of that, the possibilities are slim. Having 3 SKUs is just 1 too many for a single generation, it's more of a marketing issue than anything else and there aren't nearly enough purchasers as it is. Their best play is to just get their supply out there, make games and continue to build out their cloud infrastructure, I don't think they have the resources to bring attention to a Pro edition, when general supply of series X console is still somewhat insufficient, and their investment into cloud has not yet gained traction.

 

[cheapchips]

I'm fairly confident that there is no Pro edition of Xbox coming.
About the only trick they can pull off is upclocking to compete (which is improbable as well, but I don't think there's technically anything crazy hardware wise about switching to dynamic clocks like Sony and going away from fixed clocks; enablement is likely just a firmware change, outside of ensuring your cooling can handle it. They've had 3 years to figure this out now), but outside of that, the possibilities are slim. Having 3 SKUs is just 1 too many for a single generation, it's more of a marketing issue than anything else and there aren't nearly enough purchasers as it is. Their best play is to just get their supply out there, make games and continue to build out their cloud infrastructure, I don't think they have the resources to bring attention to a Pro edition, when general supply of series X console is still somewhat insufficient, and their investment into cloud has not yet gained traction.

They've also failed to deliver any next gen games after 3 years, so next gen + half is probably asking a bit much of their studios.

 

[mpg1]

I don't think you have can have 3 target specs at once and I don't think Microsoft can drop either of the Series consoles anytime soon. So I don't really see how a pro console is possible for Microsoft. I mean they essentially set their strategy in stone at the beginning of the generation by offering two consoles.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Having 3 SKUs is just 1 too many for a single generation, it's more of a marketing issue than anything else and there aren't nearly enough purchasers as it is.

MS won't have a pro, but on the matter of 3 SKUs, if we consider the XBS family as entry-level and top-tier, then replacing the XBSX with an XBSX+ would maintain two tiers, encourage the hard-core to level up and offer something new to new owners. You'd just run the risk of outpricing potential XBSX buyers if XBSX+ costs more

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I don't think you have can have 3 target specs at once and I don't think Microsoft can drop either of the Series consoles anytime soon.

Sony got close with a slight overlap with PS4, PS4 Pro and PS5 but they ended PS4 Pro production pretty soon after PS5 went on sale for nobody to be able to buy it. Not to mention were all for cross-generation so were actively supported Xbox One / One S / One X, Series S and Series X - so four Xbox hardware configurations!

 

[mpg1]

MS won't have a pro, but on the matter of 3 SKUs, if we consider the XBS family as entry-level and top-tier, then replacing the XBSX with an XBSX+ would maintain two tiers, encourage the hard-core to level up and offer something new to new owners. You'd just run the risk of outpricing potential XBSX buyers if XBSX+ costs more

That would still be the same problem from a consumer relations perspective ultimately. They'd be dropping support way too soon for everyone who bought a XSX.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Not sure what you mean by dropping support. XBSX would still get games. XBSX+ would get the same games better and XBSS worse.

 

[QPlayer]

What percentage of PC users have hardware that runs significantly better multiplatform games than current generation consoles? Maybe 1-2%. 90% of average users do not see a graphical difference between a SeriesX and a modern PC. So these consoles are quite good, and they are not yet properly used, e.g. at the I/O level...

Given that, what would be the point of bringing out a Pro console in the middle of a generation? 1-2 million people would buy it for 7-800 dollars, compared to the basic versions, which are constantly bought for ten times as much.

This is not the previous generation, where 4K TVs made it a necessary step (was it worth getting them out? not really...) to the Pro versions. Now there isn't.

 

[pjbliverpool]

What percentage of PC users have hardware that runs significantly better multiplatform games than current generation consoles? Maybe 1-2%. 90% of average users do not see a graphical difference between a SeriesX and a modern PC. So these consoles are quite good, and they are not yet properly used, e.g. at the I/O level...

Why speculate when the Steam Hardware survey will give you exact figures?

3070: 3%
3080: 2%
3070Ti: 1.4%
3080Ti: 0.76%
4070Ti: 0.62%
4090: 0.56%
3090: 0.52%
4080: 0.4%
6800XT: 0.27%
6900XT: 0.21%

Add in the 6800 and Radeon 7xxx series which aren't listed individually and you're around 10% in total.

Taking Xbox Series S+X total sales of ~22m and a total active Steam userbase of 135m, then you're looking at around 13.5m PC gamers with hardware that would provide a noticeably superior experience to the Series X. Since that's more than half the total Series sales and the S is the more popular console, it follows that there are actually comfortably more gaming PC's out there that would provide a noticeably superior experience to the Series X that there are Series X's.

 

[Proelite]

The technical barrier to creating a console isn't as high as before. Gpd, Valve, Ayaneo, OneX are all making machines that are just as complicated of not more so than the consoles.

The barrier is likely from the business side hesitant to have too many options available for consumers that traditionally don't want to think about console selection beyond just Xbox vs Playstation.

If Sony, MS etc want to introduce introduce new SKUs, it'll either have to be replacing existing ones, or new SKUs that occupy a completely different market segment or price range. I.e handheld or $699+ extreme edition.

Based on the specs of the pro, I don't see why they can't hit $499-$599. Meaning that it's a drop in replacement for the PS5, and the PS5 slim will become new cheaper SKU with lower performance.

 

[homerdog]

The barrier is likely from the business side hesitant to have too many options available for consumers that traditionally don't want to think about console selection beyond just Xbox vs Playstation.

Xbox marketing department has already achieved maximum confusion (Xbox One X, Xbox Series X, Xbox One S, Xbox Series S all being sold at the same time). This must be intentional so I don't see why they would consider additional SKUs a bad thing. They could call it the Xbox Series X Plus One.

 

[mpg1]

Not sure what you mean by dropping support. XBSX would still get games. XBSX+ would get the same games better and XBSS worse.

That's 3 tiers....