Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?
- Thread starter invictis
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Looking at the PS5/ Xbox series I don't think taking the approach from last gen refreshes would work. Using The ps5 apu with just faster clock speeds and a refreshed gpu will work. Same goes with the one x. Even going to RDNA 3 isn't going to be a game changer in terms of the direction that game engines are moving in. whatever we want to makes up the ps5 gpu and series gpu are simply not fast enough to mix high resolution , frame rates and raytracing.
When you factor that in with MS's excellent backwards combability it might be smarter to launch completely new machines free from the constrains of last gen. AMD is apparently readying big little cpu designs. Maybe we can see a 16core big with a quad core little. The little cores can handle the os leaving the larger cores free for gaming. I do not know AMD's road map for gpu but perhaps RDNA 4 will be the last rdna 4 and they can move on to something new
I think the fact that we are coming up on 3 years into this generation without an announcement of an enhanced console tells us everything we need to know. Last generation Sony announced PS4 Pro corresponding to the upshot in 4K tvs (Sony sells those) and PSVR (Sony sells those too), and PS5 already supports 8K and PSVR2 already came out. Even if they are both working on them behind the scenes, neither of them is going to jump without the other, and neither seams interested in going for it.
There is no doubt that Sony is going to release a Pro version. The argument is money. The timing is most likely to be later as compared to the PS4 thanks to a world that is essentially broken.
When demand goes down Sony will adjust the price on the OG PS5 and release the Pro. And 20% of the buyers will buy the pro version and provide more money to Sony.
The focus will be on RT and Framerate with 1st party games offering upscaled 8K to go with the premium Sony TVs
It's the good thing about Sony, the have a playbook and they follow it.
When demand goes down Sony will adjust the price on the OG PS5 and release the Pro. And 20% of the buyers will buy the pro version and provide more money to Sony.
The focus will be on RT and Framerate with 1st party games offering upscaled 8K to go with the premium Sony TVs
It's the good thing about Sony, the have a playbook and they follow it.
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
Um...no.
Upscale isnt anything really. You either have the TV upscale, or have the console upscale. It wont be true 8k by a longshot. XBOX One S was also upscaling to 4K but the thing was natively outputting below 1080p in many games.
Some reconstruction algorithm using native 4k (instead of the sub 4k we get from many games now) to upscale to 8k may give some nice results.
Stranegly the PS5 has 8K on the box, but I have no idea what content or (future?) feature it is indicating to. The console is certainly struggling with 4K on AAA titles.
agreed. 4K will likely be the resolution that games will stop at. It supports any screen size and up to UHD content.
8K is just too massive, its resolution is 7680x4320. 1080p content will look so terrible on it. But regardless it’s made for large screens and 8K content and that makes it real niche globally compared to 4K.
Content production for 8K is extremely rough. I just don’t see how anyone would be interested in doing it.
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snc
Veteran
For flat games I agree, for vr 8k is no brainer
Flappy Pannus
Veteran
I'm aware of upscaling, I'm just skeptical that even with that it will be a promoted reason for the PS5 Pro's existence. 8K TV's are nowhere near affordable, won't be in 2024, and regardless there is no indication they are something the general public even wants at this point. This is very different from when 4k was hitting the market. The infrastructure to support it was coming along when the PS4 Pro hit. There is no indication that is coming for 8k in any timeframe where the PS5 Pro would be relevant.
It will be a tick on the box just as it is now, but it won't be marketed as the main selling point, or even at all. There is no market demand for 8K TV's that Sony will be satisfying in 2024.
I agree
Maybe when regular streamed television or video is 4K and to everyone, adoption to 8K will begin. But even 4K adoption will take a while in this respect. There’s just little reason to buy a 8K set. It’s just painfully expensive
Well yes, there's plenty of doubt and good reasoning why it wouldn't happen.
And yes, I think money is probably the #1 argument against it. You say it means it'll just come later, but the later you release it, the less sense it makes since the generation will have a limited life, and users will have less games and time to actually take advantage of their expensive new toy.
Not to mention that cost savings over time are not like they used to be. There's some, but when we're talking trying to like double GPU power or something(~7900XT performance), that's not gonna be anywhere near 'cheap' to do even in three years. Similarly, dont expect the existing consoles to get the sort of price cuts we used to get, either.
I mean, I still think it's very possible that a PS5 Pro is coming, and some reputable rumors seem to suggest it is, but I definitely think there's some very valid reasons why it's just not really worth doing this time around and so might not come out, either cuz it never really existed or gets cancelled or something.
Average TV sales about 200 million per year. 6 million 8K TVs sold globally in 2022; 60% of these are in China.
So looking at all all of 3 million 8K TVs per year sold in rest of world. Even if sales double each year, not a significant market any time soon; certainly smaller than 4K adoption when the mid-gen consoles appeared last gen.
So looking at all all of 3 million 8K TVs per year sold in rest of world. Even if sales double each year, not a significant market any time soon; certainly smaller than 4K adoption when the mid-gen consoles appeared last gen.
The price isn't even the main argument against 8k. It's just genuinely not useful for the vast majority of people. In fact, I've kind of figured through some napkin math that even for PC users at a desk, 5k is really the max resolution that is worth chasing, perceptually. For living room TV's, even very large ones, 4k is already basically past the point of usefulness(though it's still a worthwhile upgrade over 1080p, since there's nothing else in between) unless you're sitting ridiculously close.
Outside of something like VR or highly specialized applications, 8k really just isn't needed at all. It's wasted resolution, wasted cost, wasted energy, and wasted development resources.
"Oh but people said the same thing about 4k"
I didn't. I was always a believer of 4k. But you can do some pixel per degree calculations, combined with some basic acuity references, to find out where increases in resolution stop being noticeable, and then realize that there's a number below that where it stops being worthwhile, cuz the differences above are so negligible even if there's technically still a very minute perceptible difference(or in other words, the last, fading drops at the end of diminishing returns).
EDIT: Oh yea, as for the actual reference, ~80ppd is about the max anybody should care about. People with exceptionally good eyesight can still detect differences up to about 120ppd or so, but again, diminishing returns make these differences quite minimal and most people dont have such eyesight to begin with.
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Tkumpathenurple
Veteran
Agreed. Framerate has been a big talking point this generation, so I think a Pro model will largely consist of base PS5's 30fps mode running at 60, and a big push towards reconstructed (they'll probably say "dynamic") 4k120. Maybe some 8k modes here and there.
And given the way we generally saw developers treat the PS4Pro - increase the resolution in line with the broader GPU - I think that's why we'll see an emphasis on clockspeeds. Especially given that they've already put in the legwork for the 7nm base PS5.
Development times are so long now that we need longer generations. Launching entirely new generations of consoles is expensive and risky. Even the weakest console of this generation, the Series S, is a solid console that's largely only going to face two relatively minor problems of lower resolutions and an absence of RT.
Mid-gens make sense given the inevitability of process node shrinks and the scalability of modern engines. IMO of course ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
To reduce risk, can't they just make the games forward compatible with added graphical flourish?
I mean, like... On XSS I can play older Xbox generations games at higher resolution/frame rate/auto hdr.
Like... What if they learn from making psvr1 games incompatible with psvr2 as something that hampers adoption.... , and make ps6 compatible with PS5/4/3/2/1 running with higher resolution/frame rate/auto hdr/ray tracing (ala Nvidia rtx remix / reshade RT)
I mean, like... On XSS I can play older Xbox generations games at higher resolution/frame rate/auto hdr.
Like... What if they learn from making psvr1 games incompatible with psvr2 as something that hampers adoption.... , and make ps6 compatible with PS5/4/3/2/1 running with higher resolution/frame rate/auto hdr/ray tracing (ala Nvidia rtx remix / reshade RT)
gamervivek
Regular
I wonder how much improvement it can bring. 5nm process more than doubling the transistors? AMD upping the clocks to get closer to 3GHz on console-level chips? RDNA3 arch changes exploited to the hilt? Infinity cache? FSR3 for consoles?
Doubling of 5700XT performance lands at 3080 level of performance in this 4k chart of latest graphics card review at TPU. RT performance should be close to 3060Ti level.
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Doubling of 5700XT performance lands at 3080 level of performance in this 4k chart of latest graphics card review at TPU. RT performance should be close to 3060Ti level.
ASUS Radeon RX 7600 Strix OC Review
The ASUS Radeon RX 7600 Strix OC comes with the best cooler of all RX 7600s tested so far and achieves unbelievable noise levels. Our review confirms that thanks to its large factory overclock, the Strix is also the fastest RX 7600 available at this time.
Tkumpathenurple
Veteran
I think that's a very important factor too. MS have done great work in running older games on newer generations. I was really happy with the number of PS4Pro 30 fps modes running at 60 on the PS5.
I'd love to see Sony get their finger out and get some solid 1st party emulators running on the PS5. Other than the emulated version of the PS4's PSP emulator. As much as I'm a PlayStation guy, I really have to wonder wtf they're thinking sometimes!
They really need to get both x86 and ARM emulators up, running, and improving performance, starting with the PS1. Unpaid enthusiasts are bloody doing it Sony!
But as much as I think forwards compatibility can help reduce risk, I think plain old backwards compatibility reduces risk plenty on its own. As long as customers don't lose access to their libraries, I think most will see free upgrades (forwards compatibility) as a bonus, but not necessarily a major factor in ecosystem decisions.
I've seen some Sony 1st party games that can run at a 40fps mode on a VRR TV. That's why I'm leaning more towards the 1.5x raw power purely through clockspeeds. Any games running at native 40fps can run at 60, native 60fps can run at 90, native 90fps at an easy 120 - the latter two being particularly beneficial for VR.I wonder how much improvement it can bring. 5nm process more than doubling the transistors? AMD upping the clocks to get closer to 3GHz on console-level chips? RDNA3 arch changes exploited to the hilt? Infinity cache? FSR3 for consoles?
Doubling of 5700XT performance lands at 3080 level of performance in this 4k chart of latest graphics card review at TPU. RT performance should be close to 3060Ti level.
ASUS Radeon RX 7600 Strix OC Review
The ASUS Radeon RX 7600 Strix OC comes with the best cooler of all RX 7600s tested so far and achieves unbelievable noise levels. Our review confirms that thanks to its large factory overclock, the Strix is also the fastest RX 7600 available at this time.
And that's only in terms of easily accessible, raw power. If they're able to leverage AMD's responses to DLSS3, we may see PS5 games with 120fps modes able to entertain ~1440p resolutions. If they can also implement RDNA3's improved RT and Infinity Cache, we may see really nicely improved 40 and 60 fps mode graphics.
That'd be 3.345GHz for a PS5 Pro. A fairly tall order, but I think it's within the realm of possibility that it may be possible late next year on 5nm given existing RDNA3 GPU's have reached 3.5-4GHz in non-gaming workloads.
Heck, even squeezing out 1 extra GHz at 3.23 is still a 1.4484 times increase. Good enough overall if also applied to the CPU clockspeed and GDDR6 bandwidth, I'd say ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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