Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

[JPT]

If there was one thing that warranted a mid-gen refresh, it would be vastly increased RTRT performance. But AMD is a total laggard here, so I doubt it.

But would that not also be better to do with a new gen? Think of all the remasters they could do with just plugging in the PC RTRT stuff

 

[Inuhanyou]

By ps6, AMD will have had to have their RT stuff figured out or atleast advanced to a point the consoles could use it much easier.

A mid gen still has the issues of only having better performance and resolution and small graphical upgrades which is not worth it in this case when the base consoles are already powerful enough to get good performance and good enough IQ when coded properly. Especially with our new FSR DLSS TSR dynamic res overlords

 

[Seanspeed]

I don't understand the relevance of this line of conversation. What does RDNA 2/3/4/16 relative awesomenicitude have to do with a mid-gen refresh? The question is whether there's a reasonable market for a mid-gen refresh and what options MS/Sony have, whether RDNA2 or 3 or 4 or 16. We know they have to use AMD, so we can look at their options without caring one jot how RDNA3 compares to nVidia to Intel.

The relevance is that a mid-gen upgrade needs to be justified in power levels to justify doing it. No offense, but I really think that should be very self-evident. An underwhelming increase in capabilities will obviously make such a product much less appealing. It needs to offer a substantial upgrade that separates it from the base consoles in a meaningful way.

And to be clear, RDNA3 is disappointing without even comparing to Nvidia. I think I made the case clear enough on that already, but including the Nvidia comparison just really drives it home. I'm not here to bicker about AMD vs Nvidia at all, I'm just trying to state the options available to Sony/MS, which is exclusively AMD, are not good. The lack of efficiency gains is especially problematic.

If they're gonna hold out for RDNA4, then RDNA4 needs to be a miraculous turnaround that far exceeds expectations. But it will also likely need TSMC N3E, which is going to make the cost problem far worse, while also meaning a later release(that makes it less appealing as the generational replacement will come sooner). As I said - no good options. Had RDNA3 actually been a success in the way that RDNA2 had been, I think they'd be in a much better position to consider it.

 

[eastmen]

I continue to maintain that the idea of new generations and refreshes are out dated thinking. If we take MS as an example you can play games on the xbox all the way back to the first generation. IF Ms went with say Zen 5 and RDNA 4 for their next release is that a refresh or a new console generation ? What if Sony went with a zen 5+ rdna 4 and MS just went with a 16 core Zen 2 + an even larger RDNA 2 ? Is one a refresh and one a new generation? does it matter if they all just play the ps5 and xbox series games ?

 

[Seanspeed]

I continue to maintain that the idea of new generations and refreshes are out dated thinking. If we take MS as an example you can play games on the xbox all the way back to the first generation. IF Ms went with say Zen 5 and RDNA 4 for their next release is that a refresh or a new console generation ? What if Sony went with a zen 5+ rdna 4 and MS just went with a 16 core Zen 2 + an even larger RDNA 2 ? Is one a refresh and one a new generation? does it matter if they all just play the ps5 and xbox series games ?

Yes, it matters hugely. What you're talking about is perpetual forwards compatibility, and this means that you dont get games that truly take advantage of the new hardware outside of 'higher settings/framerates'. I know this may rankle a few PC gamers, but the difference between Medium and High/Ultra in games is really pretty minimal in most cases, in the grand scheme of things. It still ultimately looks like the same game, just a bit better. It is not a generational difference at all in the same way that Uncharted 3 to Uncharted 4 is, for example.

I think Microsoft were certainly considering this for a good while(and is part of the reason why they're completely empty of games that can properly show off the XSX), but ultimately backtracked hard once Sony made it clear they would keep up the 'generations' model(though even they have been reluctant to fully commit to this the way they always have). But I think this was all mainly financial considerations, and fear of what lower install rates could mean for sales in a world of ever higher development costs. They obviously had nothing to fear though, given the incredible rate of adoption for both PS5 and Xbox Series consoles, which are near or at record levels.

I suppose you could argue this dearth of true next titles combined with record sales of these consoles proves you dont need 'true next gen games', but I think if the situation continued like this, it'd be a big problem. Many early adopters were still expecting that the shift to next gen-exclusive games would happen soon enough and was part of their purchasing decision. If they were only ever gonna be PS4 Pro/XB1X Mk2 consoles, the demand for them would have been WAY less.

 

[Inuhanyou]

No one wants HDD to keep games chained forever. I think that about sums it up. Fully being able to take advantage of the new consoles is just common sense after a while

 

[eastmen]

Yes, it matters hugely. What you're talking about is perpetual forwards compatibility, and this means that you dont get games that truly take advantage of the new hardware outside of 'higher settings/framerates'. I know this may rankle a few PC gamers, but the difference between Medium and High/Ultra in games is really pretty minimal in most cases, in the grand scheme of things. It still ultimately looks like the same game, just a bit better. It is not a generational difference at all in the same way that Uncharted 3 to Uncharted 4 is, for example.

But isn't that the point we are at now ? How many PS5 exclusive games are there adn we are in the third year of the console life? God of war, grand turismo are on ps4. Games are only going to take longer to make. the latest rumor is saying Last of us 3 will be a ps5/ps6 game .

So wouldn't we face the same issue with a refresh ? Did any games ever come out that truly took advantage of the refreshed hardware outside of higher settings/framerates ? What game was on the ps4 pro that didn't exist on the ps4 ?

I think Microsoft were certainly considering this for a good while(and is part of the reason why they're completely empty of games that can properly show off the XSX), but ultimately backtracked hard once Sony made it clear they would keep up the 'generations' model(though even they have been reluctant to fully commit to this the way they always have). But I think this was all mainly financial considerations, and fear of what lower install rates could mean for sales in a world of ever higher development costs. They obviously had nothing to fear though, given the incredible rate of adoption for both PS5 and Xbox Series consoles, which are near or at record levels.

Isn't sony also completely empty of games that can properly show off the ps5 ? What ps5 games can I not play on the ps4 ? Demon souls remake ? Ratchet and clank ? God of war is just higher res/ frame rates than the ps4 version , grand turismo is just a higher res/ frame rate vs the ps4 version and so on and so forth.

I suppose you could argue this dearth of true next titles combined with record sales of these consoles proves you dont need 'true next gen games', but I think if the situation continued like this, it'd be a big problem. Many early adopters were still expecting that the shift to next gen-exclusive games would happen soon enough and was part of their purchasing decision. If they were only ever gonna be PS4 Pro/XB1X Mk2 consoles, the demand for them would have been WAY less.

The delay of true next gen games take longer and longer for them to exist
A rolling gen lets you jump on when you want and at what power level you want. In a few months you will want to play starfield right ? Well you can get the best experiance with a high end pc. You can go to the best console version the series x or a lower range series s. But hey maybe your still on the xbox one and don't have the budget for any of the other experiences. Well you just go ahead and stream it on your old xbox or on your tv or phone. At some point MS and Sony are going to mvoe away from this generation of hardware. Sony is going to have to move past the ps5 like they are doing with the ps4. However MS wont have to say good bye to the series . They can just continue to enable cloud streaming on it.

 

[Seanspeed]

But isn't that the point we are at now ? How many PS5 exclusive games are there adn we are in the third year of the console life?

I specifically went over this already. :/

I also think you'll find many of these PS5 buyers aren't happy with this extended cross-gen period at all. Sony promised a belief in 'generations' and people bought in with that expectation. Many likely would have avoided doing so if they knew it'd just be PS4 Pro Mk2 for a couple years. Sony basically lied to their customers in this respect and it's been a VERY weird generation in that regard, with the few true next gen games coming somewhat early and then dying out for the next year.

Still, that cross-gen period is coming to a close now. And it will showcase a new level of games that simply WOULD NOT be possible if developers all still had to make their games work for those old Jaguar/GCN-based consoles for years to come. That would be super horrible. It would feel like massive stagnation.

If you're talking about the inclusion of streaming, that's a very different thing. That's not real forwards compatibility. That's just streaming. You could do the same thing on a TV or a smartphone. But as we've seen, streaming technology just aint there yet to actually replace the traditional and superior local gaming experience. Either way, you still need 'new generations' or else games are all still gonna become dated compared to their competition.

 

[eastmen]

I specifically went over this already. :/

I also think you'll find many of these PS5 buyers aren't happy with this extended cross-gen period at all. Sony promised a belief in 'generations' and people bought in with that expectation. Many likely would have avoided doing so if they knew it'd just be PS4 Pro Mk2 for a couple years. Sony basically lied to their customers in this respect and it's been a VERY weird generation in that regard, with the few true next gen games coming somewhat early and then dying out for the next year.

Still, that cross-gen period is coming to a close now. And it will showcase a new level of games that simply WOULD NOT be possible if developers all still had to make their games work for those old Jaguar/GCN-based consoles for years to come. That would be super horrible. It would feel like massive stagnation.

If you're talking about the inclusion of streaming, that's a very different thing. That's not real forwards compatibility. That's just streaming. You could do the same thing on a TV or a smartphone. But as we've seen, streaming technology just aint there yet to actually replace the traditional and superior local gaming experience. Either way, you still need 'new generations' or else games are all still gonna become dated compared to their competition.

I was going to post a long thing here. But let me just ask.

The ps4 generation started in 2013 and the ps5 released in 2020. Even with a 7 year gap you still had another 2 full years (or maybe even 3 we have to wait and see what sony's new releases release on) that you are playing ps4 games. So you have almost a decade of PS4 games. In 2016 we got a ps4 pro which really didn't add much to the situation. It just enabled higher resolution and frame rates over the base ps4. Wouldn't it have been better if we had gotten a zen 1+ vega based system instead of the ps4 pro ?

When you look at the ps5/xbox series you have a 8 core zen 2 processor + rdna 2. We can look at AMD's innovations on the cpu side. You have 3d cache which makes a massive difference in some games , you have zen 4 which makes a massive difference in games over zen 2 and you have AI cores coming down the pipe in the 7x00 and 8x00 cpus and that is later this year or early next year. You already have rdna 3 out and while its not a home run its better than rdna 2. you may have a refresh next year or even rdna 4.

So why would you want them to build a console that is just an enhanced ps5 when they can move to new technology?

 

[PSman1700]

Its not all that favourable to be that much behind in RT, AI reconstruction and raster at the same time even for consoles. We dont want another generation like the current.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Its not all that favourable to be that much behind in RT, AI reconstruction and raster at the same time even for consoles. We dont want another generation like the current.

Which is why it's up to AMD to get on the ball. But as games will be focusing on the consoles as the 8th gen falls away, I don't think it says much about a mid gen refresh

 

[iroboto]

It’s not all that favourable to be that much behind in RT, AI reconstruction and raster at the same time even for consoles. We dont want another generation like the current.

It’s a tall ask for a mid powered device designed for low price points, and is generally unrealistic. Can’t ask a console to be a PC.

The current generation is quite good, I don’t see any issues with it, the feature set is present even though the hardware to push it is not. From a development perspective this is still ideal as power can always come later and drivers can be made to leverage new hardware but developers will not back port code to support new features.

As far as I can see to date; the consoles have played their role perfectly for this generation. Until nee feature sets are released I don’t see a reason for a new generation.

 

[Arkham night 2]

Performance target
1080p 240 fps no rt
1080p-1440p 120fps some RT 4k 60fps full rt

 

[dobwal]

No need for a mid gen as this gen feels like a continuation of the previous gen. Hardly any "wow" titles that usually start to appear during the 2nd year into the gen. This hardware feels more like Xbox One X 2.0 and PS Pro squared then next gen.

Full support of RT and more mature versions of engines like unreal 5 seems better suited for XSX 2 and PS6 versus some mid gen skus.

 

[PSman1700]

It’s a tall ask for a mid powered device designed for low price points, and is generally unrealistic. Can’t ask a console to be a PC.

The current generation is quite good, I don’t see any issues with it, the feature set is present even though the hardware to push it is not. From a development perspective this is still ideal as power can always come later and drivers can be made to leverage new hardware but developers will not back port code to support new features.

As far as I can see to date; the consoles have played their role perfectly for this generation. Until nee feature sets are released I don’t see a reason for a new generation.

Yeah looking it from another angle and the HW is indeed quite good. That'd be true whatever the specs are i think.

 

[davew]

No need for a mid gen as this gen feels like a continuation of the previous gen. Hardly any "wow" titles that usually start to appear during the 2nd year into the gen. This hardware feels more like Xbox One X 2.0 and PS Pro squared then next gen.

Full support of RT and more mature versions of engines like unreal 5 seems better suited for XSX 2 and PS6 versus some mid gen skus.

l agree with you about no need for mid-generation refresh hardware, but I feel the current premium systems are much more than just One X/Pro 2.0. I don't believe there is one game released that takes full advantage of either hardware, and from a CPU standpoint, they are vastly ahead of last generation. This year should be the year we see delayed current gen only software that pushes these consoles.

I also agree that RT performance should be addressed with a new generation of hardware, not a mid-gen refresh that will struggle to show any decent uplift while maintaining a cost that more than a few can afford. My thoughts are that this generation should be much shorter, going back to the length they were before Xbox 360/PS3, with a 5-6 year time frame. We need new hardware by holiday 2026, and it I think then we will see an even higher performance jump between generations, than we did between last year's refresh hardware and current generation.

 

[Nesh]

I continue to maintain that the idea of new generations and refreshes are out dated thinking. If we take MS as an example you can play games on the xbox all the way back to the first generation. IF Ms went with say Zen 5 and RDNA 4 for their next release is that a refresh or a new console generation ? What if Sony went with a zen 5+ rdna 4 and MS just went with a 16 core Zen 2 + an even larger RDNA 2 ? Is one a refresh and one a new generation? does it matter if they all just play the ps5 and xbox series games ?

These are too many "what if's" when we have actual history of next gen released. PS360, PS4/One, PS5/Series X that pretty much define a given price point area and a performance that accompanies a product that is sold at that price.
BC on PS2 or PS3 (at least in its limited temporary form) or 360 or XBOX One didnt erase what was considered a next gen release. They played old games but also had their own releases

 

[Seanspeed]

I was going to post a long thing here. But let me just ask.

The ps4 generation started in 2013 and the ps5 released in 2020. Even with a 7 year gap you still had another 2 full years (or maybe even 3 we have to wait and see what sony's new releases release on) that you are playing ps4 games. So you have almost a decade of PS4 games. In 2016 we got a ps4 pro which really didn't add much to the situation. It just enabled higher resolution and frame rates over the base ps4. Wouldn't it have been better if we had gotten a zen 1+ vega based system instead of the ps4 pro ?

When you look at the ps5/xbox series you have a 8 core zen 2 processor + rdna 2. We can look at AMD's innovations on the cpu side. You have 3d cache which makes a massive difference in some games , you have zen 4 which makes a massive difference in games over zen 2 and you have AI cores coming down the pipe in the 7x00 and 8x00 cpus and that is later this year or early next year. You already have rdna 3 out and while its not a home run its better than rdna 2. you may have a refresh next year or even rdna 4.

So why would you want them to build a console that is just an enhanced ps5 when they can move to new technology?

I honestly dont understand the intent of your post here, so dont know how to respond to it. I wouldn't want them to build an enhanced PS5. I'd suspect you responded to the wrong but person, but you quoted multiple comment sections of mine, so I dont think so.

Basically, I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[arandomguy]

I was going to post a long thing here. But let me just ask.

The ps4 generation started in 2013 and the ps5 released in 2020. Even with a 7 year gap you still had another 2 full years (or maybe even 3 we have to wait and see what sony's new releases release on) that you are playing ps4 games. So you have almost a decade of PS4 games. In 2016 we got a ps4 pro which really didn't add much to the situation. It just enabled higher resolution and frame rates over the base ps4. Wouldn't it have been better if we had gotten a zen 1+ vega based system instead of the ps4 pro ?

When you look at the ps5/xbox series you have a 8 core zen 2 processor + rdna 2. We can look at AMD's innovations on the cpu side. You have 3d cache which makes a massive difference in some games , you have zen 4 which makes a massive difference in games over zen 2 and you have AI cores coming down the pipe in the 7x00 and 8x00 cpus and that is later this year or early next year. You already have rdna 3 out and while its not a home run its better than rdna 2. you may have a refresh next year or even rdna 4.

So why would you want them to build a console that is just an enhanced ps5 when they can move to new technology?

Zen 1 would not have been ready for 2016. Zen 1 CPUs weren't launched until 2017. The current Zen 2 based consoles were launched a year after Zen 2 itself was out. Not to mention DRAM and NAND costs at the time would have also implications on how much you could actually improve things in that aspect as well. As such it'd be questionable how much a better hardware wise an actual "new gen" console would have been than the PS4 Pro even if launched slightly later in 2017/2018. Which in turn would also mean it would arguably be rather under powered now if such a hypothetical machine launched.

In terms of waiting for even more future hardware this isn't so straight forward. For a refresh console going with hardware that is too different from what exists brings additional complications in terms of software compatibility and optimization.

Possible AI acceleration addons from a mid gen refresh could actually be rather efficient additions when weighed from a user experience stand point. The selling point for a PS5 Pro could be x2 frame generation and better upscaling to 4K and even 8K. RT implementations are also relatively more scalable for the games that did implement those. Another angle would be increased storage, with Sony specifically this is rather interesting because they don't directly sell a high margin storage addon that would conflict business wise.

My thoughts are that this generation should be much shorter, going back to the length they were before Xbox 360/PS3, with a 5-6 year time frame. We need new hardware by holiday 2026, and it I think then we will see an even higher performance jump between generations, than we did between last year's refresh hardware and current generation.

We will have to see but current indications seem to point to that this generation may instead be on the longer side due to multiple factors including the disruption brought on my pandemic.

 

[JPT]

We will have to see but current indications seem to point to that this generation may instead be on the longer side due to multiple factors including the disruption brought on my pandemic.

Aha YOU created the pandemic, why? WHYYYY?????