Do you think there will be a mid gen refresh console from Sony and Microsoft?

[function]

Ignoring that midrange offerings are heavily shifted around per generation by naming and everything and are NEVER a good way of judging actual generational improvements at all(always compare flagship to flagship), you're not taking into account that there was only like 16 months between RDNA1 and RDNA2, not to mention they're both on the EXACT same process node. These are huge factors to take into account here. AMD absolutely achieved massive architectural improvements with RDNA2, especially in efficiency, which allowed their high end parts to be very competitive.

RDNA3 had a longer development time AND it had a major node process improvement along with it.

"You can carry this on via PM if you like" - haha, you could have PM'd me, but man you needed the last word, eh? lol

For me, RDNA3 performance was a disappointment for the reasons you mention - time and node - but also because it (to me) failed to respond adequately to the move towards RT that Nvidia delivered in 2018.

Quite apart from whether mid gen performance boosted refreshes make sense this time (in an age of rising prices for existing hardware), I've not seen anything in RDNA3 that indicates that AMD presently have mature technologies that could deliver an X1X or PS4Pro level jump for realistic prices. Current GPU prices are frikkin' stupid even thought they aren't selling in particularly great numbers.

 

[davis.anthony]

but also because it (to me) failed to respond adequately to the move towards RT that Nvidia delivered in 2018.

What would have been adequate in your eyes?

Their 2nd generation RT hardware is as fast as Nvidia's 2nd generation RT hardware, it's just typical AMD being late the game (again) and being a full generation behind Nvidia.

Is it not unrealistic to expect AMD to do a 2x generational leap in RT hardware performance when Nvidia haven't done that themselves?

 

[function]

What would have been adequate in your eyes?

Their 2nd generation RT hardware is as fast as Nvidia's 2nd generation RT hardware, it's just typical AMD being late the game (again) and being a full generation behind Nvidia.

Is it not unrealistic to expect AMD to do a 2x generational leap in RT hardware performance when Nvidia haven't done that themselves?

AMD entered RT late and relatively weak. As things stand, their RT performance on their top end, largest GPUs, is barely competitive with the 4070Ti in RT heavy games, despite the 4070Ti being lower down the range, cheaper, and drawing less power.

And I mean *massively* less power.

I was simply hoping for more from AMD. Their cards are bad by no means, but a gap emerged in 2018 that they have been unable to close, at least in terms of the most demanding rendering technologies.

I continue to game on a Radeon 570 8GB. I am by no means an AMD hater.

 

[davis.anthony]

AMD entered RT late and relatively weak. As things stand, their RT performance on their top end, largest GPUs, is barely competitive with the 4070Ti in RT heavy games, despite the 4070Ti being lower down the range, cheaper, and drawing less power.

And I mean *massively* less power.

I was simply hoping for more from AMD. Their cards are bad by no means, but a gap emerged in 2018 that they have been unable to close, at least in terms of the most demanding rendering technologies.

I continue to game on a Radeon 570 8GB. I am by no means an AMD hater.

Power is a big issue for RDNA3 for sure, but it still contains only their second generation RT hardware which is very competitive to Nvidia's second generation RT hardware.

There first go at RT was OK....just about, when you compare both of their first attempts at RT AMD actually had the fastest over all product as 6900XT > 2080ti even if it was via sheer brute force.

AMD's biggest problem was lower down the product stack as RT performance fell off a cliff after the 6700XT.

RT for RDNA3 is still lower than Nvidia's latest offerings but AMD offer higher raster performance as well as a very healthy increase in VRAM so it's swings and round abouts.

For me, RT is the most important which is why I went with the 4070ti, if I favoured raster performance over RT I would have gone with the 7900XT.

 

[Inuhanyou]

AMD entered RT late and relatively weak. As things stand, their RT performance on their top end, largest GPUs, is barely competitive with the 4070Ti in RT heavy games, despite the 4070Ti being lower down the range, cheaper, and drawing less power.

And I mean *massively* less power.

I was simply hoping for more from AMD. Their cards are bad by no means, but a gap emerged in 2018 that they have been unable to close, at least in terms of the most demanding rendering technologies.

I continue to game on a Radeon 570 8GB. I am by no means an AMD hater.

This says it all really. AMD must take several years and take a good look at their technologies and what they want out of them to come back swinging. Sony and MS have four or five years to wait.

It's not like AMD can't do it if they try, they disrupted CPU industry pretty well when they came with a good product

 

[Frenetic Pony]

This says it all really. AMD must take several years and take a good look at their technologies and what they want out of them to come back swinging. Sony and MS have four or five years to wait.

It's not like AMD can't do it if they try, they disrupted CPU industry pretty well when they came with a good product

I'd expect RDNA4 to be the last RDNA gen, and whatever's next to be a major redesign. Heck we already have a good idea of what 4 is like. As there'll be a major upgrade to raytracing traversal, and a move to modular chiplets for everything, there'd be the argument for cost and RT improvements for a mid gen refresh in say, 2025?

But, to be honest, there's other more relavent mid gen refresh opportunities. Move to 6nm bus chiplets, and say a 4p refresh of much the same CPU/GPU arch for PS5; replace the custom SSD with a Samsung 1tb 980, and include the new media block.

Suddenly you have a cheaper die design, with a PS4 pro like "boost mode" (move to 18gbps memory) that suddenly applies to a lot of games because unlocked framerate/variable resolution/whatever and doesn't require almost any effort on the devs part. You get a cheaper die, and you get vastly improved streaming capabilities. Playing the PS5... S? Whatever, remotely at 4k60hdr sounds like a worthy upgrade for some people. For others, who cares it's a new model that costs the same as the old one! (and is cheaper to make for Sony anyway).

 

[Inuhanyou]

I also think a PS5 slim cost down version is a lot more attractive than any sort of pro

 

[jiaolu]

i think it would be arm based products next round, xbox series like, handhold , the console.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Of course, but RDNA3 puts them heavily on the backfoot on this. It would require a seriously miraculous level of improvement to make sense, and AMD's execution just doesn't deserve that kind of benefit of the doubt.

I think it would also require that this RDNA4 revision be TSMC N3E, which makes the cost problem even more problematic.

I don't understand the relevance of this line of conversation. What does RDNA 2/3/4/16 relative awesomenicitude have to do with a mid-gen refresh? The question is whether there's a reasonable market for a mid-gen refresh and what options MS/Sony have, whether RDNA2 or 3 or 4 or 16. We know they have to use AMD, so we can look at their options without caring one jot how RDNA3 compares to nVidia to Intel.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

i think it would be arm based products next round, xbox series like, handhold , the console.

I'm about gonna lock this thread in a minute. This is a topic about mid gen refreshes, not what cpu will be used in next hardware, nor how competitive or not RDNA GPUs are. Unless you're presenting an argument Sony/MS can swap to nVidia, that brand shouldn't be making any appearance here.

 

[davis.anthony]

Considering how far behind they've already fallen compared to PC over the last 2 years we may very well see a refresh.

Their raster performance is equal to PC GPU's that are over 4 years old and their RT performance (Even compared to other AMD GPU's on PC) is laughable.

RT is also one of those things that will also scale incredibly well with better hardware so a Pro model could be made to have multiple RT effects enabled compared to a base models single effect.

And there are gamers would buy a Pro model if it had way more RT effects in a game.

 

[Globalisateur]

Considering how far behind they've already fallen compared to PC over the last 2 years we may very well see a refresh.

Their raster performance is equal to PC GPU's that are over 4 years old and their RT performance (Even compared to other AMD GPU's on PC) is laughable.

RT is also one of those things that will also scale incredibly well with better hardware so a Pro model could be made to have multiple RT effects enabled compared to a base models single effect.

And there are gamers would buy a Pro model if it had way more RT effects in a game.

That's historically not true at all (compared to previous gen console vs PC) and even if true that wouldn't mean anything for a mid-gen refresh cause. You are looking at specs on paper but what about the reality of the gaming experience? Just look the state of some the latest game running on "high end" PCs. The console stutter free experience is even better than in previous generations and I actually see plenty of people going from PC to console on several games because the stutter problems on their rigs.

And now that consoles have SSDs, this is no longer the decisive factor to get the game on PC (it was one of the reasons people got their games on PC previous gens, I clearly remember it).

They will release a mid gen refresh (as soon as they can confortably produce it with a right price/power balance) because there is a demand for it and the previous mid-gen experience worked very well for them.

 

[davis.anthony]

That's historically not true at all (compared to previous gen console vs PC) and even if true that wouldn't mean anything for a mid-gen refresh cause.

Yes it is.

You are looking at specs on paper but what about the reality of the gaming experience?

The reality? The reality is this...

Better RT on PC
Better IQ on PC
60fps on the most demanding games on PC

Gaming is still much better on PC.

And you don't need to spend thousands either, I can build a PC for less than double what PS5 costs and get double the RT performance, better IQ and better frame rates.

The longer these consoles are on the market without a price drop the more their value for money drops in relation to PC.

Just look the state of some the latest game running on "high end" PCs. The console stutter free experience is even better than in previous generations and I actually see plenty of people going from PC to console on several games because the stutter problems on their rigs.

A lot of the games that suffer with stuttering on PC (Calisto Protocol and TW3 update for example) have piss poor frame rates on console.

So yea, they trade stuttering for performance or IQ issues.

And now that consoles have SSDs, this is no longer the decisive factor to get the game on PC (it was one of the reasons people got their games on PC previous gens, I clearly remember it).

Getting a PC because they have an SSD has never been a thing, if it was everyone would have jumped to PC in 2006/2007.

Mod edit: language. -Pete

 

[Inuhanyou]

I don't think there is a big enough demand for new hardware at all when demand can't be satisfied as it is with the current units. MS just need some heavy hitters out to sell units and nintendo will probably have their switch 2 close to releasing this time next year.

People want PS5 to get cheaper and more compact and barely anyone is talking about performance or resolution, when dynamic res and FSR2 can help minimize the stress on GPU related functions to a significant degree.

It's fair to say RT could be better for PS5 and series x, but most RT implementations that are cross platform will be limited by what the PS5 and series x can do , thereby severely limiting the impact of games designed entirely around RT pipelines, which for the next RT push is not something I want to see.

It would make a much better impact and incentive to buy a machine if the technology is fully mature and starting from scratch everything is fully primed to make full use of that technology without so many asterisks and limitations involved. Well, that's just my opinion.

 

[davis.anthony]

It's fair to say RT could be better for PS5 and series x, but most RT implementations that are cross platform will be limited by what the PS5 and series x can do , thereby severely limiting the impact of games designed entirely around RT pipelines.

No they won't, RT is super easy to add too.

Once you have a BVH up and running then adding additional RT effects is relatively easy to do for the PC version.

We're already seeing this happening, Spiderman MM has RT shadows which PS5 doesn't, they're also adding extra RT effects for the PC version of Returnal.

 

[JPT]

There is no reason for Sony / MS to release a midgen refresh like last gen.
Last gen they said it was due to UHD screens, but even better RT that most likely nobody outside forums like this will notice it, ie not a big system seller.

Have Sony/MS recouped the R&D for current gen consoles? If not why pile on more expenses into a midgen, with negligible upsides?

 

[Sonic]

I still believe there's a case to be made for a mis gen refresh on the high end. The launch of PS5 and Xbox Series tells us is that there are plenty of people willing to spend more to have a better machine. Price them at $800 to make a profit and leave room for a sizable performance increase. Increase RT effects for new games coming out for the machines going into the future.

 

[Davros]

If there is a refresh i think it will be because they've figured out how to make it for less

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I still believe there's a case to be made for a mis gen refresh on the high end. The launch of PS5 and Xbox Series tells us is that there are plenty of people willing to spend more to have a better machine. Price them at $800 to make a profit and leave room for a sizable performance increase. Increase RT effects for new games coming out for the machines going into the future.

They are willing to pay that much to have a generational advance. I'm not sure they are willing to pay that to have a half-gen advance.

 

[Pinstripe]

If there was one thing that warranted a mid-gen refresh, it would be vastly increased RTRT performance. But AMD is a total laggard here, so I doubt it.