Discussion on the Israeli/Palestinian situation...

[horvendile]

Oh, the Palestinians have been saints.

(...)

Yeah. Let's give THEM money, weapons, supplies. Good plan.

I can't help thinking that there should be a solution that does not involve giving anyone weapons.

Anyway, what I was going to say, and relating to other comments:
There are definitely no saints here. Israel was destroying Palestinian infrastructure and generally harassing long before the second intifada. We're basically talking apartheid. The Palestinians' suicide bombings on the other hand are not only disgusting, they are also incredibly stupid. If not for them, I'd wager they'd have a good bit more of world opinion on their side now, and they don't really achieve much. (Come to think of it, they do hurt Israel's economy badly, but that hasn't helped the Palestinians.)

The Palestine state, when it existed, was corrupt and... well, corrupt. Now, it barely exists, since Israel
a) physically cuts it to pieces with walls and settlements
b) "mentally" cuts it to pieces by systematically destroying its administrative functions. Over and over again, it has been shown that Israel sabotages institutions that, even stretching it, cannot be said to be "terrorist infrastructure".

These ramblings aside, for the practical matter at hand, I don't think discussions on who is the worst sinner are very interesting. Israel is where it is, and so are the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world. The Bible view on how it should be cannot be heeded. Obviously, the first step must be to stop aggressions, and it is only Israel that can do that.
Why do I think so?
Because
a) The Palestinian society/state is in such a bad shape that the leadership have little control over the suicide bombing groups
b) The bombings did stop. There was a suicide bombing a short while ago, but if my memory serves me right, before that there was a period of several months with no bombings at all. Yet, I understand that Israel did not slow its shredding of the Palestinian society one bit.

Like it or not, the US giving supplies and weapons to Israel has kept the PLO in the middle East and away from us and most of our allies.

Had the US not been giving weapons and in blanco-support to Israel, the PLO likely would have no problem with the USA.

That said, I'm quite tempted by the two-way "you fire on them, we'll fire on you" approach. It might just work! But given Israel's military resources, it presupposes them approving external military influence, and I just don't see that happen anytime soon.

Okay, one last rambling, then I'll go to bed:
What the Palestinians have not understood is that suicide bombings only make things worse.
What Israel has not understood is that you cannot continue to scream about the suffering of the Jewish people, antisemitism and the holocaust as soon as anyone dares criticize Israel, when you are in such a position of strength as Israel is. To put it harshly, you can be a victim or a superior power. Not both.

BTW, I have repeatedly heard that the news reporting on the conflict in US is very one-sided. I do not know if that's true, but I recommend the article Pascal linked to. I haven't read all of it, and I don't agree with every word, but I find it mainly good. One could argue that it's biased too, but it is written by Jews, and I'd say it gives a fair view of the situation. In any case, it's less slanted than the first article in this thread!

 

[Sharkfood]

b) The bombings did stop. There was a suicide bombing a short while ago, but if my memory serves me right, before that there was a period of several months with no bombings at all. Yet, I understand that Israel did not slow its shredding of the Palestinian society one bit.

Not according to the media reports here for the past 2 years.

There have been several attempts from Israel in the past two years where all troops and tanks have been pulled out of the West Bank/Gaza and the result was intensified suicide bombings in Israel. Sharon showed the world for the THIRD time with his withdrawal shortly after the Bush effort to dictate "pull all troops out of the West Bank" statement, at which point there were three extremely bloody suicide bombings on the Israeli people. It took three events before the troops were moved back in. Sharon also referenced two other such events that the world seems to have short memory of.

That is the valid standpoint of the Israeli standpoint- how can they be expected to constantly and continually take the "pull the troops out of the occupied lands" stance when they have shown.. and proven.. to the world on multiple occasions what the proven outcome is. Intensified murder of women and children in Israel. It doesnt seem to matter HOW many times Israeli lives are lost to illustrate this fact.. people just dont seem to want to absorb it.

And the bombings have never stopped in recent months, they just lost media attention due to current Iraq/US/France political drama. Palestinians have continued to target women/children in Israel every month for the past year with complete regularity. The only breaks in the violence can be measured in days/weeks, from which Israel has claimed (be it true or false) responsibility for by documenting which homes had been demolished and what terrorist planners had been captured or killed in days prior, as well as listing the events they were planning.

 

[Humus]

If everyone there is so great though, why can't the palestinians just live in isreal why do they need their own little state, it is a democracy let them live there and vote. What is so wrong with that.

Well said. To me the best solution would be that the palestines would be granted full Isreali citizenship and the right to vote. Getting there might not be quick an easy, but I don't see it as impossible to settle a plan over how to get there over a number of years.
Also, to solve the issue, we need to get Sharon and Arafat out of the picture. New leaders with a new way of thinking would be required.

 

[Natoma]

b) The bombings did stop. There was a suicide bombing a short while ago, but if my memory serves me right, before that there was a period of several months with no bombings at all. Yet, I understand that Israel did not slow its shredding of the Palestinian society one bit.

Not according to the media reports here for the past 2 years.

There have been several attempts from Israel in the past two years where all troops and tanks have been pulled out of the West Bank/Gaza and the result was intensified suicide bombings in Israel. Sharon showed the world for the THIRD time with his withdrawal shortly after the Bush effort to dictate "pull all troops out of the West Bank" statement, at which point there were three extremely bloody suicide bombings on the Israeli people. It took three events before the troops were moved back in. Sharon also referenced two other such events that the world seems to have short memory of.

That is the valid standpoint of the Israeli standpoint- how can they be expected to constantly and continually take the "pull the troops out of the occupied lands" stance when they have shown.. and proven.. to the world on multiple occasions what the proven outcome is. Intensified murder of women and children in Israel. It doesnt seem to matter HOW many times Israeli lives are lost to illustrate this fact.. people just dont seem to want to absorb it.

And the bombings have never stopped in recent months, they just lost media attention due to current Iraq/US/France political drama. Palestinians have continued to target women/children in Israel every month for the past year with complete regularity. The only breaks in the violence can be measured in days/weeks, from which Israel has claimed (be it true or false) responsibility for by documenting which homes had been demolished and what terrorist planners had been captured or killed in days prior, as well as listing the events they were planning.

Actually Sharkfood the bombing did stop from 1998 - 2000. This current intifadeh was started after Ariel Sharon's uncaring and undiplomatic visit to a sacred muslim sanctuary in Jerusalem. He basically did it to show the palestinians that it is Israel, not them, who control Jerusalem, and they can go anywhere they want. Thus the suicide bombings of the past 3 years began.

Do a google on "Sharon visit intifadeh jerusalem" and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Sharkfood]

Actually Sharkfood the bombing did stop from 1998 - 2000.

November 2, 2000 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 10 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb in outdoor Market
October 26, 2000 Gaza 1 Wounded Islamic Jihad Youth Suicide Bomber on Bike
November 7, 1999 Netanya 27 Wounded Hamas 3 Pipe Bombs
August 10, 1999 Nahshon Junction 6 Wounded Hamas Car Plows into Crowd (Twice)
November 6, 1998 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 20 Wounded Islamic Jihad 2 Suicide Bombers
October 29, 1998 Gush Katif 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber Attacks School Bus
October 19, 1998 Be'er Sheva 59 Wounded Hamas Grenades Thrown at Central Bus Station

Do a google search on just about anything and these are well documented.

 

[horvendile]

And the bombings have never stopped in recent months, they just lost media attention due to current Iraq/US/France political drama.

No. They did stop. It was not just me not paying attention.
Regardless whether they did stop or not, however, I recognize that Israel cannot be expected to pull all security measures, checkpoints and so forth (though I would appreciate if they got their soldiers to cut down on the arbitrary assaulting). What they could do is stop expanding the settlements. I should imagine that the continuing expansion of these is one of the most important explanations to the continuing violence.

As a bonus, stopping that expansion would save Israel a lot of money. It is incredibly expensive.

If everyone there is so great though, why can't the palestinians just live in isreal why do they need their own little state, it is a democracy let them live there and vote. What is so wrong with that.

Well said. To me the best solution would be that the palestines would be granted full Isreali citizenship and the right to vote.

This is one of the inherent problem with having an explicitly jewish state. Depending on how you count, there would be more Palestinians than, er, Israelis, in Israel. The jews might turn out a minority. I don't see them accepting that.

 

[Natoma]

Actually Sharkfood the bombing did stop from 1998 - 2000.

November 2, 2000 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 10 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb in outdoor Market
October 26, 2000 Gaza 1 Wounded Islamic Jihad Youth Suicide Bomber on Bike
November 7, 1999 Netanya 27 Wounded Hamas 3 Pipe Bombs
August 10, 1999 Nahshon Junction 6 Wounded Hamas Car Plows into Crowd (Twice)
November 6, 1998 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 20 Wounded Islamic Jihad 2 Suicide Bombers
October 29, 1998 Gush Katif 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber Attacks School Bus
October 19, 1998 Be'er Sheva 59 Wounded Hamas Grenades Thrown at Central Bus Station

Do a google search on just about anything and these are well documented.

That's very odd. I remember reading news articles a few years ago regarding the cease fire between the palestinians and the israelis. Basically the Intifadeh was no more during 1998-2000. I guess there were still suicide bombings, however, the official sanctioning from the Palestinian 'government' was one of a cease fire. Arafat (well, if you trust him that is) also condemned the suicide bombings during that time of cease fire.

Arafat officially called for the intifadeh to begin again after Sharon's visit to the muslim sanctuary in Jerusalem.

 

[Sharkfood]

horvendile-

No. They did stop.

So I guess Israeli bodies they are putting in the ground are just some elaborate government hoax orchestrated by Sharon. *sigh*

Natoma-

I guess there were still suicide bombings, however, the official sanctioning from the Palestinian 'government' was one of a cease fire. Arafat (well, if you trust him that is) also condemned the suicide bombings during that time of cease fire.

There has never been a time in recent history that Arafat hasn't condemned the deaths of women and children in English. There have just been several occasions where he has been found stating the opposite in Arabic directed at his own people which people have tried to put date ranges around.

Whether or not you "trust" Arafat or not isn't the issue. The real issue is- how do you put a leash on Islamic Jihad and Hamas. Sharon believes the only way is through Israeli occupation and reductions in future killings of women and children can only be orchestrated by their occupation and intelligence operations. Arafat's (and the standing government) have only proven that they are either: a) In support of their actions or b) impotent at controlling these factions. There is no c) or d) in this situation- it only falls into one of those categories when you look at the history of the region.

The victims are the people that live in this region. Be they Hamas/Islamic Jihad followers, or just innocent civilians that have been displaced in this area. They are caught up in this war and victimized almost daily by the pending war between the two sides.

 

[Nagorak]

Oh, the Palestinians have been saints.

Do we support the Palestinians militarily? Please go back and read my post.

Remember the PLO? Remember Arafat ordering acts of terrorism left and right all around the world? Remember the attempted assasination on Sharon ordered by, then praised by, Arafat? As recently as 2001, Arafat was calling to the Palestinians to commit acts of martyrdom in the name of their cause. Yeah. Let's give THEM money, weapons, supplies. Good plan. Like it or not, the US giving supplies and weapons to Israel has kept the PLO in the middle East and away from us and most of our allies.

Israel has a feeling, and I think it's credible, that if they ceed the Gaza Strip and declare it an official Palestinian state, rather than the DMZ it supposedly is right now, then the Palestinians will advance even further, placing their citizens in harm's way. Ever hear the saying, "history repeats itself?" The past is the only thing they have to base their plans for the future on. Look at the history of Israel. It was created by the UN for the Jews after WWII. These are a people that were beat down by Hitler, only to be jumped on by all the surrounding Arab nations the day after Israel was officially declared a country. What, in their history, would make them think that ceeding any land would be a wise decision? They aren't trying to take over more land. They aren't invading anyone. They are trying to keep what they have, and keep it safe.

Both Israel and Palestine were founded on terrorism, and they both continue to follow that model today. They both fought against the British and each other, until the British left.

You need to go back and read up on history: originally Israel was divided evenly between Israel and Palestine and that still is how things are supposed to be today according to the UN. Israel took over most of the country, yes they do need to cede some of the land back. Instead they are continuing to build illegal settlements in Palestinian territory.

That said, I totally agree that innocents should not be the target of Israel's frustrations. Their current plan seems to be to just bowl over anyone and anything on the course to the bad apples. That can't be tolerated, no matter who is doing it. I am not condemning the Israelis for their reasons. I think they are sound and historically just. But the way they are going about things is not right. They should just be targeting the terrorist groups, and not the people who have no involvement.

Yeah, but they're not doing that. The bottomline is they see it that all Palestinians are involved. Just like Hamas and Islamic Jihad see all Israelies as the enemy.

Both sides are instigators of terrorism, it's just Israel uses Tanks and Jets, while the Palestinians use suicide bombers. Neither side is actually very different at all. Neither side is the good guy. You're the one trying to paint one as being superior, not me.

I wouldn't quit your day job and become a prophet if I were you. Israel has nukes.

Do you know anything about nuclear weapons at all? If Israel used it on any country in the region, they'd irradiate themselves. A nuclear war in the mideast would end up destroying Israel as well. Furthermore, any use of nuclear weapons and the rest of the world would go in and throw them out, including the US. You are badly understimating how devastating and unacceptable the use of nuclear weapons is.

By the way, eventually all the arab countries will have nukes and what then? Eventually Israel will lose. It's not prophetic, it's common sense. There's one country amidst 20!

This issue is not going to be resolved by talk. Oh, sure. It'll all look good in the press, and be great PR for those chumps who actually think that the few words of an outsider will mean anything. But they won't.

I think the US, UK, and whoever else is man enough to do the dirty work has to set up there and FORCE peace. Tell the Israelis "You fire on them, we'll fire on you." Tell the Palestinians, "You fire on them, we'll fire on you." Think of how liberating it would be to be an Israeli or a Palestinian and not have to worry that the other guy was going to shoot you on the way to work...that your daughter can play outside with her friends without a grenade landing in the yard....that your elderly mother can go to pray without getting run over by a tank.

This statement to me shows how little you understand the situation. Talk is eventually the only way to come to peace. Both Israel and Palestine will just keep fighting indefinitely, if both cannot accept they have to give something up at the table. Unless, of course, Israel decides to resort to genocide (which would be ironic in a twisted way, considering their history), but I'm not sure that would tolerated any more than the use of nuclear weapons.

Both sides are responsible for the problem. Both sides have to make concessions. But right now neither one thinks they have to. That's fine, let them fight it out. But stop giving one side money, it just draws the US into the cross fire.

If everyone there is so great though, why can't the palestinians just live in isreal why do they need their own little state, it is a democracy let them live there and vote. What is so wrong with that.

Because the Israelis want a theocracy. They can't let any non-jews in, or they lose their majority. If things were that simple, the world would be a wonderful place.

 

[MrsSkywalker]

Nagorak, I am sitting here shaking my head in dismay of YOUR lack of understanding of the situation.

First off, Israel was not founded on terrorism. In that you are completely wrong. Neither was Palestine. The terrorism came after both sides felt grave injustices were committed against them by the other team.

Do you know anything about nuclear weapons at all? If Israel used it on any country in the region, they'd irradiate themselves.

You are the one here that has no grasp of a nuclear weapon. Dropping one nuke would not irradiate them. You know, I watched a movie called "Nuclear Winter" when I was in high school. It was written by people like you. According to "The Effects of Nuclear War" (Washington: Office of Technology Assessment, Congress of the United States, 1979), the lethal fallout zone around a nuke is between 1-160 miles, depending on wind and rain factors. Granted, a lot of people would die...but most of Israel would be perfectly fine. If they dropped one on, say, Jordan, then ALL of Israel would most likely be unaffected b/c of the wind patterns in the area.

You are badly understimating how devastating and unacceptable the use of nuclear weapons is.

I never, EVER said the use of nuclear weapons was an acceptable way to solve a problem. I was pointing out that if a country invaded Israel and Israel fired the nukes, they would win. Period.

By the way, eventually all the arab countries will have nukes and what then? Eventually Israel will lose. It's not prophetic, it's common sense. There's one country amidst 20!

Yes. Eventually every country will fall. Eventually we'll all die. Eventually the earth will cease to contain life. I was talking about the near future, not a few hundred years from now. Sorry I'm not as forward thinking as you...I was speaking about events that will happen in my lifetime. No one else in the area wants to get involved b/c of Israel's nukes. Notice how they are all staying out of it?? I think Israel's pretty safe as a nation in the forseeable future.

This statement to me shows how little you understand the situation. Talk is eventually the only way to come to peace. Both Israel and Palestine will just keep fighting indefinitely, if both cannot accept they have to give something up at the table.

This statement to me shows how little you understand reality. The reality of things is that neither side wants to give in AT ALL. Both sides feel that they have a legitimate claim to the land, both sides want revenge for past wrongs, both sides are unwilling to cooperate. It's not just the governments involved. Say they sign a treaty...like a for real deal treaty. Both governments agree to end the fighting. Great. What about the citizens who are bitter? Hurt? Feel incensed that their own government could side with "them"?? Are you going to call each individual person to the table to sign the agreement and mean it? They aren't just going to stop b/c some big-wig-thinks-he's-important-American-politician tells them to. You are dreaming if you think that will actually work.

Why don't you "pacifists" get it?

You know what? Go ahead and wave your banners and signs calling for peace. While you're out there talking about it, we're gonna go make it. They can't just "set aside their differences" because someone tells them to...sometimes you have to make them. It's ugly, it's childish, but it's the truth.

And I do support Israel's POV more than I support the Palestinians. I do not approve of the way Israel is going about things, and I agree they must be stopped, with force if necessary. If that makes me one sided, then slap my ass and call me Righty.

 

[horvendile]

The bombings did stop. There was a suicide bombing a short while ago, but if my memory serves me right, before that there was a period of several months with no bombings at all. Yet, I understand that Israel did not slow its shredding of the Palestinian society one bit.

It appears I'll have to revise that statement a bit.
It arose from me seemingly remembering an article in one of Sweden's most reliable newspapers stating that there had been a stop in suicide bombings. I haven't been able to find that very article, but I dug around a bit and found that:
There was a stop. But:
It was only six weeks, not "several months".
It was around September last year, not as short a while ago as I remembered.
So, I was a bit off.
Sorry about that.

That does not however change my main position, that regardless who is the worst sinner, Israel must stop expanding its settlements. If they don't, I don't see how the violence could ever stop.

(BTW, is there a good synonym to "however"? I use that way too much.)

 

[Sharkfood]

That does not however change my main position, that regardless who is the worst sinner, Israel must stop expanding its settlements. If they don't, I don't see how the violence could ever stop.

They must not only stop the expansion of new settlements, but also start an accelerated process to remove existing settlements.

As it stands right now, any form of peaceful negotiation of co-existence between the Israeli and Palestinian people would require YEARS of Jewish settlement displacement and removal of these settlements. The longer such a process takes, the more difficult maintaining peace in the interrim will be. By increasing the volume of settlements, the end result is increasing the complexity of any future peaceful agreement.

 

[horvendile]

Aye.

 

[ET]

Just wanted to make a few comments, as the resident Israeli on this board. It's a response to several points made.

First, removing settlements can be done very quickly. I believe that was the case with the peace with Egypt. [That said, I'm fully for removing small settlements and not creating new ones -- there are quite a few illegal settlements with people that can be counted on one hand and are guarded by several times the number of soldiers. This is stupid. I just don't think it's creating a real long range problem.]

Secondly, the idea of granting the Palestinians full civil rights was raised by the Israeli left before the first Intifada, but was dropped after that. The problem is that it's not practical to give political power to an enemy that about equals you in number. We already have two groups that vote mostly as a group and not as individuals -- "Israeli Palestinians" and Ultra Orthodox Jews. We really don't need, IMO, another group that will help undermine the precarious democracy that we have here.

The temple mount, where Sharon visited to ignite the second Intifada, has been, before it was returned to the Palestinians, under Jordanian religious control, even when it was part of Israel. Israelis where always welcome there, including into the mosque. It has only become problematic after the peace with Jordan, when it was given to the Palestinians, and largely used for inciting riots (including throwing stones on Jews praying beneath). That Sharon's visit was to show off is obvious, but that it was just an excuse for violence for the Palestinians is also obvious. It was just after the talks with Prime Minister Barak, when he offered quite a lot, and Arafat refused.

Most political parties, including the Likud (from which Sharon comes) agree to the solution of a Palestinian state. The real question is how much it would encompass and on what terms. Thorny problems are Jerusalem, the "right of return", and what weapons the Palestinian state could have.

By the way, Europe gave and still gives quite a lot of money to the Palestinians. That support didn't help the Palestinians much because of the corruption of the Palestinian Authority. They are encouraged to keep the bombing on Israel because the most direct money they get is, for example, from Saddam, who pays money to families whos children have died as suicide bombers.

Frankly, I've been more left wing in the past, but I'm less now simply because I'm less hopeful. The support given the Palestinians, and all the peace talks, have usually resulted in more bombings. Fortunately, there are some voices amongst them that are starting to see that the violence gets them little. I hope this leads to discussion.

 

[Nagorak]

Nagorak, I am sitting here shaking my head in dismay of YOUR lack of understanding of the situation.

First off, Israel was not founded on terrorism. In that you are completely wrong. Neither was Palestine. The terrorism came after both sides felt grave injustices were committed against them by the other team.

They both engaged in terrorism against the British and against each other.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_terrorism

I think Israel's pretty safe as a nation in the forseeable future.

It doesn't seem like that to me. Outside of some African countries, their situation is probably one of the most precarious. Not to mention, there's a difference between existing, and existing in prosperity. If the people there all are in a living hell (Palestinian and Israeli alike) then what difference does it make if the states exist in name.

Why don't you "pacifists" get it?
You know what? Go ahead and wave your banners and signs calling for peace. While you're out there talking about it, we're gonna go make it. They can't just "set aside their differences" because someone tells them to...sometimes you have to make them. It's ugly, it's childish, but it's the truth.

Who is a pacifist? Let me quote myself:

Both sides are responsible for the problem. Both sides have to make concessions. But right now neither one thinks they have to. That's fine, let them fight it out.

And I do support Israel's POV more than I support the Palestinians. I do not approve of the way Israel is going about things, and I agree they must be stopped, with force if necessary. If that makes me one sided, then slap my ass and call me Righty.

Why don't you take a trip to the region and take a tour of the Palestinian territories. Or even just look at some photos online. Then maybe you'll understand why they're fighting, and you might have some more sympathy for their situation.

More Palestinians have been killed in this conflict than Israelis, so I guess the wanton use of military force is at least as effective as a suicide bomber here and there. Honestly, I don't understand why it's ok to blast people with tank rounds, but not to strap explosives to yourself. In the end, the result is the same.

Both sides are fighting, that is clear. There are extremists on both sides. So why do we play favorites by giving aid to Israel? Cut the life line and let them both fight it out.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

The truth is the Israeli conflict is dangerous in that it could set off the whole region, and then it becomes a problem for everybody.

 

[Nagorak]

By the way, Europe gave and still gives quite a lot of money to the Palestinians. That support didn't help the Palestinians much because of the corruption of the Palestinian Authority. They are encouraged to keep the bombing on Israel because the most direct money they get is, for example, from Saddam, who pays money to families whos children have died as suicide bombers.

It's true that Saddam's money isn't helping the situation, but it looks like that won't be a problem much longer. I just think both Europe and especially the US needs to get more involved in the peace process, if they're going to keep giving money in aid. The Bush admininistration especially has been negligent in this area. Then again, considering Bush's idea of diplomacy, maybe it's just as well.

Frankly, I've been more left wing in the past, but I'm less now simply because I'm less hopeful. The support given the Palestinians, and all the peace talks, have usually resulted in more bombings. Fortunately, there are some voices amongst them that are starting to see that the violence gets them little. I hope this leads to discussion.

I think the problem is, there are extremists on both sides that find it very easy to hijack the peace process. Terrorists are quite effective, in that way, at least. It's really too bad an agreement couldn't be reached under Barak, since it seemed like it was just out of reach. It probably would help if the Palestinians had some better leadership too.

 

[RussSchultz]

Of course, the US government doesn't give money/arms to the Israelis to oppress the Palestinians. Its been co-opted to some degree, but the support of Israel is to keep it alive from the threats of its neighbors, all who refuse to accept Israel as a state and would like to "sweep it into the sea".

 

[Nagorak]

Jordan and Egypt have both signed formal peace agreements with Israel, so I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. Although, a peace agreement is just a piece of paper.