Digital Foundry Retro Discussion [2016 - 2017]

Discussion in 'Console Technology' started by Cyan, Jul 21, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    9,063
    Likes Received:
    2,674
    not the wrong thread at all. My best childhood friend had a Megadrive. But tbh I had never heard about this game, nor I can imagine the Megadrive running it, actually.
     
    bunge likes this.
  2. dogen

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    338
    Likes Received:
    260
    You should try it in an emulator. The rom comes with the shareware levels. He even recently improved it with slightly higher resolution and performance.
     
    Cyan and bunge like this.
  3. HTupolev

    Regular

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    564
    Strict graphical improvement from one game in a series to the next is hardly ever a hard rule.

    Even when systems get replaced by systems that most people call "better", there are often particular cases or respects in which the old system has benefits.
    Like, the lighting system in games like the original Doom is in some respects very crude compared to later lightmap approaches; it's only able to apply flat light levels across big chunks of geometry, and can't handle stuff like the smooth radiosity gradients that a lightmap bake gives you. But it trivially and efficiently allows for, say, sharp hard environmental shadows.

    But oftentimes things just plain get downgraded. A lot of the "improvement" that happens across a generation is developers deciding which things to prioritize, and which things to slash.
    Sometimes this can even persist across generational leaps. Halo 5 almost certainly doesn't have a system analogous to Halo 3's "area specular", since objects in the game suffer from tons of anomalous rim lighting.

    Changing game design can also have a huge effect on what you can and can't get away with.
    Even weird stuff like tweaks to camera acceleration and whatnot can have a big impact. It's amazing what FFXIII gets away with just because it has a camera that's very difficult to parallax without rotation; there's tons and tons of giant pre-rendered cutout background objects, which would be very obvious if it wasn't so hard to stop the camera from swooping to align with your movement direction. (Probably a big part of why FFXIII-2 "has worse graphics.")

    Developers usually try to make each new game get perceived as "more graphically impressive/modern/whatever" than the last, but whether that works out in any given case is ultimately subjective...

    I'm not very familiar with their functional constraints, but at the very least there'd be a performance cost associated with them.
     
    #203 HTupolev, Jun 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
    TheAlSpark and Cyan like this.
  4. bunge

    Regular Newcomer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2014
    Messages:
    725
    Likes Received:
    513
    It's a technical marvel:

     
    function and Cyan like this.
  5. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    9,063
    Likes Received:
    2,674
    talking of impressive games for the machine they were running on... I always wondered how the original Xbox could run Ninja Gaiden Black at 60 fps -plus it had a 720p iirc-. The game looked incredible overall. However it was its perfect gameplay and progression which makes it one of the 10 best games ever made -in my personal list-.

    As you can see it still holds fine and it passes the test of time.

     
    BRiT likes this.
  6. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    21,737
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    It didn't have 720p, but supported 16:9 properly.
     
    Cyan and BRiT like this.
  7. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    12,457
    Likes Received:
    2,770
    I remember playing this at a friends house. It was outstandingly awesome in every way. A perfect game
     
  8. function

    function None functional
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2003
    Messages:
    5,345
    Likes Received:
    2,813
    Location:
    Wrong thread
    Yep. It's insanely good.

    MD still had a lot in the tank at the end of the generation - at least in terms of performing effects on the CPU . Pity that the M-CD wasn't properly supported and the 32X took focus away from the core system towards the end of its life.
     
  9. HMBR

    Regular

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    105
    it makes me wonder why such port was not made at the time? they made it for the SNES and complained about the Nintendo restrictions...
     
  10. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    9,063
    Likes Received:
    2,674
    ah okay, I remember discussing in forums back in the day how Ninja Gaiden Black allowed to be set at 720p, but that was before the HD generation so... I think it is upscaled, not true 720p
     
  11. HMBR

    Regular

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    105
    very few games supported 720p on the xbox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_games_with_alternate_display_modes
    Ninja Gaiden would have benefited a lot from it, the thing I remember negative about it (apart from being to difficult for me) is that it had a lot of aliasing, but the rest was very impressive, so it would probably be to demanding for 720p,
    maybe it runs at 720p on the 360 BC?!
     
    Cyan likes this.
  12. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    21,737
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    360 BC didn't change res, but they did add MSAA. Ninja Gaiden and DOA2U might have been 2xMSAA.
     
  13. see colon

    see colon All Ham & No Potatos
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,627
    Likes Received:
    499
    Would it have been 4x? Xenos does 4x per rop and it wouldn't have to tile nor would bandwidth be an issue.
     
  14. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    21,737
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    That's just what I remember seeing when I last played.
     
  15. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    21,737
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    Halo: CE 4xMSAA
    Halo 4xMSAA.jpg

    Ninja Gaiden Black 2xMSAA
    NGB 2xMSAA.jpg
     
    Cyan likes this.
  16. see colon

    see colon All Ham & No Potatos
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2003
    Messages:
    1,627
    Likes Received:
    499
    Weird. I wonder what the performance bottleneck would be if Xenos could do 4x MSAA per rop, and shouldn't have been fillrate or memory bandwidth bound.
     
  17. Nesh

    Nesh Double Agent
    Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2005
    Messages:
    12,457
    Likes Received:
    2,770
    Although I agree to a large extend to what you say, I believe that in the case of Tekken Tag vs the rest of the Tekken games on PS2 it had obvious overall graphical advantage minus the artistic aspect which is of course more subjective but can improve the visual appeal. Maybe the game design prohibited from replicating the lighting, materials etc. But it is still a different case compared to other titles where shift in priorities produced significant and unquestionable improvements in areas that more than compensated for the reduction or luck of other graphical features.
    The case is also much more interesting with Tekken Tag because it overall produced effects and detail that were generally not thought possible or reproduced by any other game on the PS2 across its lifespan and that was one of the first games on the console.
    The idea I get from the particular title is that Namco tried "unconventional" ways due to lack of tools and experimented with various effects because the capabilities of the console were not fully understood and standardized. IFIRC Namco did say they were challenged a lot with TTT in old interviews trying to figure out how the console worked
    At a later point Namco maybe abandoned using the same approach as it consumed too much time and money
     
  18. TheAlSpark

    TheAlSpark Moderator
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2004
    Messages:
    21,737
    Likes Received:
    7,403
    Location:
    ಠ_ಠ
    hm... the simplest rationale would be if the game already used MSAA on Xbox, and they didn't want to interfere with the engine emulation at all or....... maybe the renderer was doing something else that required more buffers simultaneously. There'd be no reason not to try to maximize usage of the 10MB space.
     
    #218 TheAlSpark, Jun 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
    Cyan likes this.
  19. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    9,063
    Likes Received:
    2,674
  20. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    9,063
    Likes Received:
    2,674
    new article featuring Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...f-kain-the-genesis-of-todays-open-world-epics

    This is a game I have on GoG and never played when it came out, so when I tried it I was lost, I felt I was using a quite polygonal character with pointy fingers in his hands and feet, wandering around without knowing what to do. I was confused. I also played Blood Omen, a pirate version, using a ISO and daemon tools, before that, and I played that one a little more.



    The seamless world had to be so impressive at the time.
     
    #220 Cyan, Jul 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...