Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2014]

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Thanks sebbbi!

So there is hope for the future of frame rates on PS4Bone! It's exciting to think of such large increases in performance being attainable within a generation.

Would you say this generation is likely to see more radical gains across its lifetime than the PS360 did?
 
The next waves of games will include new techniques that provide smoother frame rate. For example compute shader based particle system (bin+gather, no overdraw) is generally around 3x faster than pixel shader / alpha blender based traditional particle system, but in the worst case (nearby explosion fills the screen with extreme overdraw) the compute shader based particle system is over 20x faster. This will grearly reduce the particle related hiccups. GPU driven rendering pipelines cut the draw call cost to almost zero, eliminating most of the fluctuation caused by varying visible object count.

However techniques like these require complete rewrite of the existing (CPU / pixel shader based) rendering engines, and are not at all compatible with last gen consoles or DX10 PCs. It will take some time.

This sounds really exciting Sebbbi:D

Are there no downsides to such a method?
 
This sounds really exciting Sebbbi:D

Are there no downsides to such a method?

As he said complete rewrites, and probably the fact that not all consoles are designed around compute..

I just read the Tegra K1 article and I must say the graphics are super impressive. I hope they can get a more in-depth article though
 
As he said complete rewrites, and probably the fact that not all consoles are designed around compute..

I just read the Tegra K1 article and I must say the graphics are super impressive. I hope they can get a more in-depth article though

Which consoles? The XB1 and PS4? Isn't that the whole point of their archetecture?

PS360 are already at EOL. They will start to get dropped by devs basically now, as software sales seems already to have shifted to a majority on new-gen. As the new-gen consoles continue to increase in installed base, this will only bolster those effects.

If I were a dev I would be pushing to re-write all my software and rendering code now. So that i'm not left behind later on; held back by aged tech on an installed base of consoles whose owners aren't really buying games anymore.
 
If I were a dev I would be pushing to re-write all my software and rendering code now. So that i'm not left behind later on; held back by aged tech on an installed base of consoles whose owners aren't really buying games anymore.

Everybody loves a rewrite until you're 6+ months in and don't have 50% of the functionality your former codebase had. I agree that periodic code base clean outs are a good idea but the devil is in the when. Look at the mess that engine rewrites have gotten Bohemia interactive into over and over again, they have a very capable platform now but if it wasn't for DayZ I wonder if they'd have survived the long gestation of ArmA 3 (or continuing gestation). How long was Minecraft a JAVA app? Sure JAVA runs like a dog and is a vast sieve of security vulnerabilities but replicating all that functionality in C++ was non-trivial and it took the success of the console ports to make a rewrite worthwhile on PC.

I suspect we won't see an 'all GPGPU all the time" engine until at least 2016 because until then these mega projects will need all those last gen users and two code bases are too expensive.
 
Everybody loves a rewrite until you're 6+ months in and don't have 50% of the functionality your former codebase had. I agree that periodic code base clean outs are a good idea but the devil is in the when. Look at the mess that engine rewrites have gotten Bohemia interactive into over and over again, they have a very capable platform now but if it wasn't for DayZ I wonder if they'd have survived the long gestation of ArmA 3 (or continuing gestation). How long was Minecraft a JAVA app? Sure JAVA runs like a dog and is a vast sieve of security vulnerabilities but replicating all that functionality in C++ was non-trivial and it took the success of the console ports to make a rewrite worthwhile on PC.

I suspect we won't see an 'all GPGPU all the time" engine until at least 2016 because until then these mega projects will need all those last gen users and two code bases are too expensive.

1st parties should be spearheading this transition. They have the resources, don't have to be driven by profit (cross platform) and their work can be used as tools to educate third party to help accelerate their transition to more compute heavy engines.
 
1st parties should be spearheading this transition. They have the resources, don't have to be driven by profit (cross platform) and their work can be used as tools to educate third party to help accelerate their transition to more compute heavy engines.

But some are already doing that and from day one: Sucker Punch already heavily used a lot of compute and asynchronous compute in Infamous SS:

- All particles tasks done by asynchronous GPU compute
- Facial animations of the characters
- And several different graphics tasks notably deferred rendering with tiled lighting, mesh processing, some post processing.

They didn't need several years (or several games on PS4) to use those techniques apparently, their first PS4 game released within the launch period already implementing advanced GPGPU techniques.

The same goes for Resogun released at lauch.

My point is that the fact that most multiplat games don't use GPU compute is not totally a question of development time/resources, but of lack of will due to cross-gen engines compatibility.

Also I think that Sucker Punch probably already shared their GPU Compute techniques/experiences to the Sony ICE team, that's just a logical assumption.
 
Advanced Warfare is COD's biggest technological leap since Call of Duty 2

The series has evolved, but is the signature 60fps gameplay in jeopardy?

Focusing on the E3 reveal's Induction mission, set to the backdrop of a besieged Seoul, we can once again verify a resolution boost over Ghosts. Exact metrics are hard to pin down based on our media, but it remains in the region of the initial 1568x882 measurements we gleaned from the reveal trailer, with the pixel ratios ruling out anything higher than 1600x900. So for Xbox One, we're still looking at a minimum 50 per cent jump in pixel throughput over last year's 1280x720 return. Indeed, the higher base image quality ultimately puts less responsibility on post-processing to cater for aliased edges. However, based on the performance profile of the non-final E3 build, such fidelity comes at a price.

Given that Ghosts could wobble somewhat from the series' ballpark performance on Xbox 360, we're disappointed to see that this initial showing of Advanced Warfare backtracks even further. The numbers look pretty uncharacteristic of any entry in the series so far, with performance only glancing on 60fps during the opening pod landing. Progressively, as play moves from tame alleyway pop-shots to roaring city-street battles involving swarms of flying drones and mechs, we go down from the 40fps range to the 30s. Needless to say, we have not seen how PlayStation 4 measures up, but remarkably, there are moments in the demo when the Xbox One's refresh at E3 is low enough that certain sections could possibly benefit from a 30fps cap.
 
The game was probably not even at alpha stage at E3. Drawing any conclusions from the material is more than premature.
 
I love digital foundry's articles, but this whole measuring framerates of E3 demos is stupid.
They have done pieces on E3 stuff before but they usually focus on the technology of the demo.
 
Yeah I dont mind the info, but the whole doom and gloom thing about the framerate is really being dramatic. The demo was shown almost 6 months before the game will release. They most likely havent even started optimizing the game yet. DF knows that yet they are trying to imply that the demo is proof they arent going to reach a stable 60 fps at launch.
 
Everybody loves a rewrite until you're 6+ months in and don't have 50% of the functionality your former codebase had. I agree that periodic code base clean outs are a good idea but the devil is in the when. Look at the mess that engine rewrites have gotten Bohemia interactive into over and over again, they have a very capable platform now but if it wasn't for DayZ I wonder if they'd have survived the long gestation of ArmA 3 (or continuing gestation). How long was Minecraft a JAVA app? Sure JAVA runs like a dog and is a vast sieve of security vulnerabilities but replicating all that functionality in C++ was non-trivial and it took the success of the console ports to make a rewrite worthwhile on PC.

I suspect we won't see an 'all GPGPU all the time" engine until at least 2016 because until then these mega projects will need all those last gen users and two code bases are too expensive.

Platform holders like Sony, and mega pubslishers like EA have their own internal engine development teams. So for them, I think issues like the ones you rightly raise are much less of an issue; as they can have their game dev teams working on the latest full-fat stable build of the engine and tools, whilst their core tech guys (ICE Team, ATG, DICE) work on re-writing the engine code and updating features and tools.

For smaller devs, it of course much more difficult to manage.
 
I believe this was unproven. Ghosts suffered frame rate drops not because it hit/exceeded the vsync cap as reported.

Nope, it initially exceeded 60fps according to DF. But that was pre-patch, which raised the resolution to 1080p. Once the game was patched to full res, it actually dropped frames.
 
Nope, it initially exceeded 60fps according to DF. But that was pre-patch, which raised the resolution to 1080p. Once the game was patched to full res, it actually dropped frames.


Thanks for clarification in subject.
 
Yeah I dont mind the info, but the whole doom and gloom thing about the framerate is really being dramatic. The demo was shown almost 6 months before the game will release. They most likely havent even started optimizing the game yet. DF knows that yet they are trying to imply that the demo is proof they arent going to reach a stable 60 fps at launch.


Yup and demos still require cert and testing. That build was likely at least 1 month old prior to e3. Possibly older.
 
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