Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2014]

[Gubbi]

I actually had no idea about this so thanks for the tip. I've now changed my TV's settings!

While scaling a 1080p input on a 1080p panel *is* dumb, the fact that you had no idea this was going on, indicates scaling isn't a big issue

Cheers

 

[London Geezer]

Wut. London Boy stealing my glory. Again.

I just have a way with words...

 

[London Geezer]

I actually had no idea about this so thanks for the tip. I've now changed my TV's settings!

Shock! Horror! Another life saved from apocalypse.

 

[Rurouni]

On my TV, the one thing that made me realize that it wasn't 1:1 was on some content it felt something was being cut. But on my monitor, it was immediately felt when it wasn't 1:1. That's why I don't really care for 1080p, because at my viewing distance, I can't fell the benefit.

 

[Goodtwin]

Watchdogs WiiU:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-vs-watch-dogs-on-wii-u

Seems like a decent port, but performance suffers a bit compared to the PS3 version. CPU mebbe?

Thanks goodness for DF, Watch Dogs was on my "to buy" list, its not anymore. Way to much time spent in the lower 20's and even in the teens when the action gets going. Not sure how preliminary reviews didn't notices these very low framerates, but this is a terribly optimized game. Every employee at Ubisoft Bucharest should be embarrassed. Terrible port. Such a shame, I was going to support it, but I cant play games that run in the low 20's most of the time.

 

[tuna]

Thanks goodness for DF, Watch Dogs was on my "to buy" list, its not anymore. Way to much time spent in the lower 20's and even in the teens when the action gets going. Not sure how preliminary reviews didn't notices these very low framerates, but this is a terribly optimized game. Every employee at Ubisoft Bucharest should be embarrassed. Terrible port. Such a shame, I was going to support it, but I cant play games that run in the low 20's most of the time.

It's UBI, what do you expect?

 

[function]

Or it could be that they've done a good job with the resources they had, and that there was just too much work for the WiiU to chew through.

Unlike Bayonetta from 2009, Watch Dogs will be leaning heavily on the 6+ threads of the 3.2 gHz, 128-bit SIMD processors in the PS360. It's possible that without completely gutting the engine and starting again, there's just too much work to do regardless of the amount of optimisation work they put in.

I don't think GTAV would fare any better. Even worse, perhaps, because of streaming from optical instead of (HDD + optical).

 

[tuna]

If UBI would think a higher frame rate is important they could have optimized (both assets and code), downgraded and redesigned the game. Obviously they had other priorities.

 

[function]

That's a huge amount of work for a game that's only going to lose money.

 

[Arwin]

Yup. Probably you're seeing here why Ubisoft announced they would stop supporting the Wii U for multi-platform releases.

 

[London Geezer]

Would be interesting to know why exactly they bothered

 

[Goodtwin]

That's a huge amount of work for a game that's only going to lose money.

Then why do it at all? I don't disagree that perhaps the game would have needed a complete overhaul to get it running good on Wii U, but as a consumer who is going to pay the same $60 that the other builds cost, so expecting a comparable product is perfectly reasonable. A framerate in the mid 20's is one thing, but in the mid teens is just awful.

 

[Nesh]

Then why do it at all? I don't disagree that perhaps the game would have needed a complete overhaul to get it running good on Wii U, but as a consumer who is going to pay the same $60 that the other builds cost, so expecting a comparable product is perfectly reasonable. A framerate in the mid 20's is one thing, but in the mid teens is just awful.

Most likely they were working on it already. After already putting some development cost they probably thought its better to finish it, release it and get at least something back than letting the cost sink. Considering WiiU's performance and its software sales, optimizing to its fullest vs releasing it as it is now, the latter seemed like a better option. Ubisoft probably thought that the extra time and money spent for optimization wouldnt have brought the additional sales to cover the extra cost.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Then why do it at all?

if (cost of effort) < (estimated demand on Wii U * $60)
port(watch_dogs)
endif

 

[goonergaz]

if (cost of effort) < (estimated demand on Wii U * $60)
port(watch_dogs)
endif

I get an error if I try to run that

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I get an error if I try to run that

So did Ubisoft!

 

[dobwal]

Every LCD TV they I've encountered is not mapping pixels 1:1 to native resolution of the panel by default, this includes high end Sony and Samsung TVs. My Bravia X8505 4K bought brand new in August had to be set to pixel 1:1 mode.

By default they 'play safe' and do not show the small border of image that traditionally was hidden by overscan on CRTs, they do this by scaling up ever so slightly - and losing the very edges of the image being output by any connected device.

When the TV is setup like this you won't notice tearing in the overscan area because it's not visible. Put the TV into 1:1 pixel or native pixel (different manufacturers have different terms for it) and it will be visible. Barely.

I think a lot of TVs have "auto aspect ratio" set to "on" because SDTV channels are all over the place when it comes to aspect ratio. I never really noticed this until I bought the XB1. I set my toshiba TV to native to accommodate 1:1 pixels while gaming only to have the TV arbitrarily set it back to "natural", which some say is a 1:1 pixel mode (but wtf is native mode). I turned off auto aspect ratio, set it the TV to native and immediately noticed that the SD channels were all over the place when it came to aspect ratio even within channels going from 16:9 movies to 4:3 commericals. Black bars galore which made anything other HD content unpleasant. I can't even surf through the SDTV range anymore.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

If I have any aspect ratio settings in the TV they're well hidden! I think the default of overscan on is also partly to do with older broadcast where it was common to store certain information in the overscan area. In the UK you don't see these often but just occasionally, you'll get a TV programme from the 1980s to early 90s and there'll be so 'dancing dots' at the very top of the screen if overscan is disabled.

These days they're usually removed (artificially by scaling/cropping them) during broadcast but every so often you see them. I remember when I used to record TV shows to VHS tapes, on commercial channels you'd get a warning a commercial break was coming up because a little box with black and white diagonal lines would appear in the top right-hand corner of the TV.

And it was common to embed teletext signals on the upper few lines of the picture. There used to be lots of data hidden in the borders of native TV broadcasts back in the day - in the UK at least.

 

[dobwal]

If I have any aspect ratio settings in the TV they're well hidden! I think the default of overscan on is also partly to do with older broadcast where it was common to store certain information in the overscan area. In the UK you don't see these often but just occasionally, you'll get a TV programme from the 1980s to early 90s and there'll be so 'dancing dots' at the very top of the screen if overscan is disabled.

These days they're usually removed (artificially by scaling/cropping them) during broadcast but every so often you see them. I remember when I used to record TV shows to VHS tapes, on commercial channels you'd get a warning a commercial break was coming up because a little box with black and white diagonal lines would appear in the top right-hand corner of the TV.

And it was common to embed teletext signals on the upper few lines of the picture. There used to be lots of data hidden in the borders of native TV broadcasts back in the day - in the UK at least.

They are there. All the major manufacturers allow you to manual set the aspect ratio settings as far as I know. On Toshiba its called the "Picture Mode" settings. Toshibas also have "picture size" settings which convolute the whole setup with a bunch of extra upscale settings. Since I forced native on all content, quickly surfing through the SDTV channels is like a kaleidoscope of black bars.

My uverse box might also be playing a part as it has its own set of picture size or mode settings. But its nothing more disturbing to me then having my 46 inch TV turned into virtual 32-36 inch set looking at native 4:3.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

They are there. All the major manufacturers allow you to manual set the aspect ratio settings as far as I know. On Toshiba its called the "Picture Mode" settings. Toshibas also have "picture size" settings which convolute the whole setup with a bunch of extra upscale settings. Since I forced native on all content, quickly surfing through the SDTV channels is like a kaleidoscope of black bars.

Oh righto, yes I have that My girlfriend uses the crop mode to remove letter boxing from DVD and Blu-ray discs. Bless her. Horses for courses, though!