Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2014]

[betternatethanlever]

I think we already are with Tomb Raider, Plants vs Zombies and COD. I would love to see how that 260X compares this time next year.

I don't think Tomb Raider should be used for comparisons as the DE has features that PC doesn't (SSS) and the PC version has features the DE doesn't have (better textures, tessellation).

About Plants vs Zombies, I honestly have no idea how you came to that conclusion without providing benchmarks or other evidence. Please do not pass off your assertions as facts without providing a reliable source.

 

[patsu]

The so-called closed box advantages (against comparable PC GPU) won't be apparent until the developers spend enough time on the consoles. Earlier on they were probably fighting Xbox One fire. The Metro people said they don't use parallel compute context in their new game. Sony and MS are still optimizing their consoles. As usual, only certain developers -- 'specially first parties or exclusive developers -- are willing to go the extra mile.

It will be more interesting to see how the low level PC GPU API perform against the console ones though.

 

[joker454]

The so-called closed box advantages (against comparable PC GPU) won't be apparent until the developers spend enough time on the consoles.

Yup, which always factors into my usual argument against these start-from-scratch-with-no-bc machines because by the time they do come to grips with the new machines that forced them to start all over yet again, the "closed box" advantage will mean all of zero because console hardware will be 3 to 4 generations behind what's on pc.

It will be more interesting to see how the low level PC GPU API perform against the console ones though.

I'm actually more interested to see how the console hardware will compare to the tablets of the time, when console coders finally come to grips with the new hardware in about 3 years or so. Be curious to see how far behind tablets are visually to the average gamer, and if anyone will really care about the visual difference.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Be curious to see how far behind tablets are visually to the average gamer, and if anyone will really care about the visual difference.

That's quite an ironic statement.

I'd say that people definitely care about consoles, there's still a huge demand for them. All recent numbers reflect this. I'd also argue that the demand for high power PC hardware has declined, there was an article recently (if my memory serves) saying that GPU sales have dropped further recently.

Edit: relating link

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8446/the-state-of-pc-graphics-sales-q2-2014

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Be curious to see how far behind tablets are visually to the average gamer, and if anyone will really care about the visual difference.

That won't matter when the games are still different. It's not like the choice to game on console over tablet is graphics driven - it's very much content driven. I also wonder when/if mobile is going to hit the power ceiling. Unless chips continue to become less power hungry, the ability for battery tech to keep up just isn't there. K1's battery life is measured in small digit hours when using that graphical power. And of course the more you recharge, the fast the batteries wear and power levels are going to decrease all the faster.

 

[joker454]

That won't matter when the games are still different. It's not like the choice to game on console over tablet is graphics driven - it's very much content driven. I also wonder when/if mobile is going to hit the power ceiling. Unless chips continue to become less power hungry, the ability for battery tech to keep up just isn't there. K1's battery life is measured in small digit hours when using that graphical power. And of course the more you recharge, the fast the batteries wear and power levels are going to decrease all the faster.

Well I'm saying purely on a visual level, like show the average person a console game and a tablet game at the same time and would they consider them to be about the same. That's what I'm curious as to when it will happen. Not there yet but seems like it should happen this gen.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Well I'm saying purely on a visual level, like show the average person a console game and a tablet game at the same time and would they consider them to be about the same. That's what I'm curious as to when it will happen. Not there yet but seems like it should happen this gen.

Moore's law suggests otherwise.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Probably. You could even get that sooner with more specialised games too. eg. Take a console game and make it on-rails on mobile, you could optimise it better and to the average Joe it'll look the same.

 

[DrJay24]

Well I'm saying purely on a visual level, like show the average person a console game and a tablet game at the same time and would they consider them to be about the same. That's what I'm curious as to when it will happen. Not there yet but seems like it should happen this gen.

Depends on the game. Maybe some game like Rayman. Then put Bioshock on a iPad next to Killzone: SF on the PS4.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Moore's law suggests otherwise.

But with diminshing returns on visuals, the perceivable difference for the average Joe decreases as technology advances such that they would regard two similar, yet different, levels of graphics to be about the same.

Depends on the game. Maybe some game like Rayman. Then put Bioshock on a iPad next to Killzone: SF on the PS4.

Joker's talking 3 years from now. When mobile is packing the same high quality shaders and probably has stacked memory, mobile could well look about the same, especially to the untrained eye. I knew someone who saw a PS2 tennis game and said it looked like watching real life!

 

[London Geezer]

With battery technology staying where it is for the foreseeable future, I don't see a huge push in tablet and phone graphics for a long, long time. Sure the features are coming and I can already see some beautiful graphics on the last gen of Apple phones and tablets, but what's the point if you need to keep them plugged in?

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'd be more curious to see how a laptop or hybrid tablet with integrated graphics is going to look in comparison to a Xbox One or PS4 in 3 or 4 years, with Mantle, DX12 available. If cheap laptops start offering reasonable gaming performance, that could be a bit of a hit for next-gen value.

 

[pjbliverpool]

I'd be more curious to see how a laptop or hybrid tablet with integrated graphics is going to look in comparison to a Xbox One or PS4 in 3 or 4 years, with Mantle, DX12 available. If cheap laptops start offering reasonable gaming performance, that could be a bit of a hit for next-gen value.

I'll be pretty suprised if the 20nm generation of APU's aren't already competitive with XBO. All it would take is a 10-12CU Tonga based core + quad channel DDR4 support. Carrizo will already have at least 8 CU's on the Tonga IP + DDR4 support so all we need are 25-50% more CU's and twice as many memory channels, both of which should be natural evolutions in light of Intels current progress.

 

[joker454]

With battery technology staying where it is for the foreseeable future, I don't see a huge push in tablet and phone graphics for a long, long time. Sure the features are coming and I can already see some beautiful graphics on the last gen of Apple phones and tablets, but what's the point if you need to keep them plugged in?

Console players are effectively plugged in as well right? You can't play your console games anywhere except in front of your tv so you are effectively chained to it. So a tablet user can plug their tablet to the wall and be "confined" that way as well and still happily play their games, they just have the option of also taking their games anywhere if they want. People do that now with phones already, especially on iPhones which have horrid battery life, they are always looking for the nearest outlet. Tablets at least can have somewhat larger batteries and can take advantage of upcoming efficiencies like 14nm which consoles can't.

Depends on the game. Maybe some game like Rayman. Then put Bioshock on a iPad next to Killzone: SF on the PS4.

Yeah that's the comparison today, let's see in a few years. I think if you told someone 4 years ago that Bioshock would be playable on iPad they would have laughed at you. And yet here we are.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

In terms of graphics, the last major step is to get realistic lighting and shadows with physically based shading; beyond that, the finer stuff like AA or asset details are barely noticeable for the average person.
That level of quality will become possible pretty soon on mobile devices - however, there's a huge jump in asset production costs, so it's reasonable to expect that only ports of AA console/PC games will be able to make the jump.

The more interesting aspect IMHO is the gameplay, as no touch based device can keep up with a good controller. If tablet gaming wants to get competitive with consoles, it'll require an add-on of some sorts for that, and the ability to connect to a large screen TV (HDMI output). Android devices will probably get the necessary accessories at a cheap price but I'm not sure if Apple is going to go low enough for the setup to get competitive.
And then there are the additional issues with storage; even with downsized assets, a single average AA game would be far too big for even a 64GB tablet. So all in all, a portable device that can compete with a dedicated console would require a lot of overpriced add-ons and a way too large format, at which point it'd cease to be a tablet. And then there'd be the publisher side issues of porting from an x86 based architecture and such...

 

[Rangers]

Well I'm saying purely on a visual level, like show the average person a console game and a tablet game at the same time and would they consider them to be about the same. That's what I'm curious as to when it will happen. Not there yet but seems like it should happen this gen.

Not sure the point though. What will forever keep core gamers away from mobile is lack of decent (default) controls.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Yeah that's the comparison today, let's see in a few years. I think if you told someone 4 years ago that Bioshock would be playable on iPad they would have laughed at you. And yet here we are.

Epic Citadel demo was running on iPad1 exactly four years ago, so Bioshock running on low settings today on a much faster hardware would not have been surprising. I'm sure if they had optimized the Bioshock to run only on iPad Air level of hardware and Apple didn't have that 2GB cap on software, it would already compare quite well.

 

[joker454]

Epic Citadel demo was running on iPad1 exactly four years ago, so Bioshock running on low settings today on a much faster hardware would not have been surprising.

It's not surprising now with full hindsight, but it was been back then because no one believed that they would be able to fit enough horsepower and battery power into the frame of an iPad in such a short time frame. Much of that is because many didn't predict how ubiquitous portable device computing would become and in turn couldn't predict that Intel, Amd, Arm and NVidia would all shift their canons full tilt at targeting this market as they do now. With so much volume at stake (in the portable device world) and so many competitors jockeying to control it, the pace of advancement may well be faster than any of us can predict.

I'm sure if they had optimized the Bioshock to run only on iPad Air level of hardware and Apple didn't have that 2GB cap on software, it would already compare quite well.

I guess the 2gb is a file system limit? I thought iOS was 64bit already, but maybe the file system isn't.

Not sure the point though. What will forever keep core gamers away from mobile is lack of decent (default) controls.

Windows tablets have supported controllers for ages now although at this point in time that's kind of like being the best hockey player in Ecuador. I recently switched to an Android phone and it seems like Moga controllers are often supported, but I don't know why this isn't all standardized yet like on Windows tablets. I assume Apple doesn't care and/or will move at their usual glacial pace, which is sad because they have the most consistent and hence most game friendly platform.

And then there are the additional issues with storage; even with downsized assets, a single average AA game would be far too big for even a 64GB tablet.

They should be able to cut down asset size quite dramatically and still hit with similar effect given the small tablet screens, and far more so on phones of course.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Everyone here seems to be talking about tablets like they expect them to be the near future of gaming. I personally went through a phase of gaming on my phone until I realised it was no good, even if the specs annihilated my PC from 12-14yrs ago. I mean honestly, do you really want to play Halo and COD on a tablet? I sure don't, no matter how good the specs are.

Are we also forgetting the the large interest around virtual reality? I've heard people stating that they believe the PS4 to be too underpowered for it. Would people now consider mobile technology to be powerful enough in 3-5 years? I'm well aware that there is already people showing VR for mobiles, but the quality in my mind would be far too poor.

I like playing Threes! on my phone, but if an older me said that's what I should expect from the future of gaming I think I'd quickly lose interest. Maybe I'm a traditionalist when it comes to gaming.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

They should be able to cut down asset size quite dramatically and still hit with similar effect given the small tablet screens, and far more so on phones of course.

I thought these games were going to be be run connected to TV and power outlet? Also tablets tend to fill FOV as much as TVs. Just picked up an iPad mini and its FOV coverage is the same as this monitor. If one is used to a huge TV, that may be different. Generally though, requirements for graphics will need to be the same to match up. However, mobile could use fewer resources and still look the same in terms of appearance, just with less detail. eg. Same house model repeated in a physically based renderer instead of lots of different models. It'll look as good as consoles if not as interesting.