Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2013]

[MJP]

I bet there are just as many people that prefer a symmetrical design than an asymmetrical design, and there are many that don't care either way.

I've actually been told of extensive focus testing on the subject where the conclusion was that people were split almost exactly 50/50 on thumbstick placement.

 

[(((interference)))]

But do you own both consoles and regularly game on both consoles?

And I gave a reason why the asymmetric layout is favourable.
Which a lot of people seem to agree with:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49310010&postcount=71
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49305714&postcount=24
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=59998013&postcount=198
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49316496&postcount=102

And what is a fact, is that Sony just bolted on the analog sticks to the design of the original PS1 controller, so you can hardly claim that it's designed to be as ergonomic as controllers like the 360's or Gamecube's which were cleansheet designs for 3D games with dual stick controls.

If it's not personal preference, how do you explain the fact that some people prefer the DS3 and its symmetrical sticks? The only problems I have with the DS3 are the triggers and the rounded sticks, both issues were addressed in the DS4 so I'm happy.

Oh but they don't:
http://au.gamespot.com/forums/topic...-placement-do-you-like-better-ps3-or-xbox-360
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/for...The-Xbox-360-Controller-or-the-PS3-Controller
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1757299

The Gamecube had asymmetrical sticks, but the Wii and Wii U controllers have symmetrical sticks.
http://gimmegimmegames.com/2012/10/wii-u-pro-controller-preview/

But the Gamecube was the last Nintendo machine to use a conventional controller as the main player input device, the Wii classic controller was - as the name suggests - meant for 'classic' games (ie ones that use the D pad and face buttons).

And I'm guessing with the Wii U Pro controller, it's already so similar to the 360 pad that mirroring the asymmetric stick layout as well would risk MS serving them a copyright infringement notice. Also on Nintendo platforms there are more games using the Dpad + Face Buttons where the symmetric layout works better.

The asymmetric layout is also what companies like Razer use for their pro controllers.

But I would say with the DualShock controllers, that it's not so much the symmetric sticks that are an issue but how inboard the sticks are - which should be fixed by the DS4.

 

[Mianca]

And I gave a reason why the asymmetric layout is favourable.
Which a lot of people seem to agree with.

Personally, I actually like the symmetrical layout way better.

I also like riding bicycles with symmetrical wheels and wearing glasses with symmetrical lenses, though.

So I guess I'm just kind of weird.

 

[Wynix]

But do you own both consoles and regularly game on both consoles?

And I gave a reason why the asymmetric layout is favourable.
Which a lot of people seem to agree with:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49310010&postcount=71
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49305714&postcount=24
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=59998013&postcount=198
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=49316496&postcount=102

And what is a fact, is that Sony just bolted on the analog sticks to the design of the original PS1 controller, so you can hardly claim that it's designed to be as ergonomic as controllers like the 360's or Gamecube's which were cleansheet designs for 3D games with dual stick controls.


Oh but they don't:
http://au.gamespot.com/forums/topic...-placement-do-you-like-better-ps3-or-xbox-360
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/for...The-Xbox-360-Controller-or-the-PS3-Controller
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1757299


But the Gamecube was the last Nintendo machine to use a conventional controller as the main player input device, the Wii classic controller was - as the name suggests - meant for 'classic' games (ie ones that use the D pad and face buttons).

And I'm guessing with the Wii U Pro controller, it's already so similar to the 360 pad that mirroring the asymmetric stick layout as well would risk MS serving them a copyright infringement notice. Also on Nintendo platforms there are more games using the Dpad + Face Buttons where the symmetric layout works better.

The asymmetric layout is also what companies like Razer use for their pro controllers.

But I would say with the DualShock controllers, that it's not so much the symmetric sticks that are an issue but how inboard the sticks are - which should be fixed by the DS4.

I believe that people such as yourself are confusing your like of the ergonomics as a preference in stick location.

I'm willing to bet that once people get a hold of the improved DS controller they will realize that it was the ergonomics they preferred and the stick placement meant jack shit.

Also, no offense but pointing to single gaf posts to support your argument is laughable.

 

[Arwin]

According to the reasons Inference logic quotes, symmetrical is better if you actually use d-pad, buttons, and both analog sticks as intended. But a-symmetrical is better because on Xbox all gamers basically only press up on the left analog stick ...

That's almost sad.

I'm sticking to the idea that there will always be some kind of small preference towards one or the other, but like many in this thread say, the main reason is that the analog sticks on the 360 are just nicer in general and that's where the idea of preference mostly comes from (potentially, the uselessness of the d-pad compounds the issue a little further though)

 

[(((interference)))]

I believe that people such as yourself are confusing your like of the ergonomics as a preference in stick location.

I'm willing to bet that once people get a hold of the improved DS controller they will realize that it was the ergonomics they preferred and the stick placement meant jack shit.

Also, no offense but pointing to single gaf posts to support your argument is laughable.

Again, I gave a reason why asymmetric stick layout works better for the typical game today.
Pointing to other people who had the same idea shows I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Gizmodo seems to agree too:

On one hand, the Xbox One's controller feels fabulous to hold, and the rumbling triggers are so very much cooler than they should be. They're going to make a big difference. But on sheer potential, Sony's built-in capacitive touchpad, and PlayStation Vita as a (rather expensive) PS4 controller, might be hard to beat.

But! But. The PlayStation controller leaving its analog/d-pad layout unchanged, and no matter how comfortable the rest of it is (which is very!), that's a big downer

http://gizmodo.com/playstation-4-vs-xbox-one-a-feature-by-feature-showdo-512606959

I'm not an ergonomics expert and don't know of any design studies on the topic so that's the best I can do *shrugs*

But I don't think given two conflicting ergonomic design choices, A or B, that it is most reasonable to assume that both choices are equally ergonomic, it's more probable that one is better than the other.

According to the reasons Inference logic quotes, symmetrical is better if you actually use d-pad, buttons, and both analog sticks as intended. But a-symmetrical is better because on Xbox all gamers basically only press up on the left analog stick ...

That's almost sad.

I'm sticking to the idea that there will always be some kind of small preference towards one or the other, but like many in this thread say, the main reason is that the analog sticks on the 360 are just nicer in general and that's where the idea of preference mostly comes from (potentially, the uselessness of the d-pad compounds the issue a little further though)

No, the point is that if you're moving forwards or backwards in a game (say a FPS/TPS) this is easier to do with the placement of the 360's left analog stick, as you can just push straight up with your thumb, wheras on the Dualshock you have to half pull/push the stick up as your thumb would be reaching out to the stick on it's right - and this is a more awkward movement.

It's something I just noticed yesterday while playing Last of Us and was reminded of it today seeing the asymmetric thumbstick discussion here.

I agree that probably a bigger issue with the Dualshock design is the flat, convex thumbpads and how far inboard they're located.

 

[Arwin]

You've missed my point though, which is that most games I play, I actually move the analog stick in all directions ... That definitely also holds for The Last of Us, where I'm continuously prowling on or hiding from enemies while keeping the camera focussed on them. The posts you quoted suggest that they're all playing Call of Duty or similar fps, just running forward and shooting all the time, old-school Quake style ...

 

[SedentaryJourney]

But I don't think given two conflicting ergonomic design choices, A or B, that it is most reasonable to assume that both choices are equally ergonomic, it's more probable that one is better than the other.

Human beings are funny that way. When asked to make a distinction between two identical objects most people will choose one over the other AND provide a justification for doing so. The sum of several personal preferences doesn't mean there's some objectively better configuration, especially since there are just as many who prefer the opposite.

You should also consider that even though there is a difference, the difference may be practically insubstantial. There's actually no reason to assume one is better just from difference alone, though it may seem natural. I think there's a lot of post-purchase cognitive dissonance at play in decisions like this.

 

[Arwin]

You can't trust humans. I was in an accident once, and all people that saw it told the police I fell because I was doing stunts on my mountain bike (was a relatively new thing back then). But while I did small (10cm) jumps over bumps in the road (while going pretty slow), the reason I fell was because some jealous kids at school had in fact unbolted my front wheel. I smashed in my face pretty badly, but kept my teeth largely thanks to wearing braces.

 

[TrungGap]

(((interference))),

I'm not sure you can attribute the fact MS redisgned the controller and Sony just slapped on to sticks to the existing design, the asymmetrical is better. What if MS did an haft ass job?

Let's consider that they knew fps was going to be big on the control, so the want a controller to reflect that, but at the same time they don't want to abandon the platformer. So as a compromise, they moved the left stick up and kept the buttons on the right side in the primary position. And a more important reason why the Xbox controller might feel better isn't that it's asymmetrical, but because its high enough.

Don't get me wrong, I love the xbox controller 1000x more than the ds3, but I'm not convinced it is as simple as asymmetry.

 

[rockaman]

Again, I gave a reason why asymmetric stick layout works better for the typical game today.
Pointing to other people who had the same idea shows I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Gizmodo seems to agree too:

http://gizmodo.com/playstation-4-vs-xbox-one-a-feature-by-feature-showdo-512606959

I'm not an ergonomics expert and don't know of any design studies on the topic so that's the best I can do *shrugs*

But I don't think given two conflicting ergonomic design choices, A or B, that it is most reasonable to assume that both choices are equally ergonomic, it's more probable that one is better than the other.

Do you believe that ergonomics is a rich and well studied science? Because it's probably not...

How many testimonials would you need to prove A is better than B, in ergonomics? Is there some definite answer here? No.

Not all hands are the same, and neither is the way we use them. Handedness, one's own anatomy, pathology in the hand, and learning all play a role. Does everyone like the same size and shape of spoon and fork to eat? No. Does everyone even use a spoon and fork to eat? Again, no, lol. I know people who prefer to eat rice with their hands.

The way we use the term ergonomics is synonymous with comfort (even though looking up the definition it doesn't mean that, it means humans interfacing with machines essentially). That doesn't make it a science. Can you study ergonomics? Yes. Can you quantify some aspects of it? Sure. Can you design products based on research and prototyping and testing with real people? Definitely. Does that make it a hard science? No. Does it need to be a hard science? No.

Is comfort a science? No. Comfort is like pain, and it is a self-reported characteristic, like how much we weigh or how old a woman is (lol jk ).

Don't waste your time proving something that is not provable.

 

[djskribbles]

This post at gaf illustrates exactly how i feel when i hold both controllers.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=66255766&postcount=330

At the same time, I fully understand how some would prefer the 360 controller. How can you not say that it's a matter of personal preference? Not only are everyone's hands different, but everyone holds controllers differently. I don't care what internet polls say. I hold my phone in landscape most of the time and I even use my phone the same way as I hold the ds3... it just feels natural to me.

 

[Jedi2016]

I've never had problems with either controller. I suppose it could depend on the game, but I agree it's very subjective.

 

[Rangers]

It seems like basically everything the Xbox controller does is acknowledged as a good thing as soon as the Dual Shock adopts it At least that seems to be the case with DS3>4 changes, IE bigger triggers, bigger size, concave stick tops.

So if DS ever gets asymetrical sticks I'm sure there will be no more debate which is better

 

[djskribbles]

It seems like basically everything the Xbox controller does is acknowledged as a good thing as soon as the Dual Shock adopts it At least that seems to be the case with DS3>4 changes, IE bigger triggers, bigger size, concave stick tops.

So if DS ever gets asymetrical sticks I'm sure there will be no more debate which is better

Every PS owner I've seen, including myself, has disliked the triggers and joysticks (the rounded sticks that is) from day 1. Many PS3 owners have bought the pro concave triggers. For me personally, they just haven't been a big enough issue for me that I'd complain about it. I have no issues with the size, shape or stick placement. If Sony switches to asymmetrical sticks, you can quote this post... I will never prefer asymmetrical sticks in the way they're laid out of the 360/X1 controller. With that said, it wouldn't be a deal breaker... I just hope Sony keeps it the way it is.

 

[patsu]

Oh~ I just don't care. ^_^
Have bigger challenges in life to worry about.

I don't know anyone who can't handle asymmetric or symmetric stick placement. That's including my then 4 year old son. He's eight now.

 

[chris1515]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-titanfall-tech-analysis

Titanfall maybe sub 1080p and some frame rate slowdown wait and see for final version.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-titanfall-tech-analysis

Titanfall maybe sub 1080p and some frame rate slowdown wait and see for final version.

They picked up on the lack of motion in the vegetation (trees, grass etc) that really stood out for me. Is this some kind of limitation in the Source engine? I remember playing Half-Life 2 immediately after Far Cry and was very disappointed that the few trees in game were rigid like they were made from iron. Almost nine years later, on nextgen hardware, and we still have metal trees

Maybe this has yet to be implemented but it sticks out like a sore thumb. Given the choice of un-animated vegetation, I'd consider removing it entirely and dropping in something else.

 

[hesido]

They picked up on the lack of motion in the vegetation (trees, grass etc) that really stood out for me. Is this some kind of limitation in the Source engine? I remember playing Half-Life 2 immediately after Far Cry and was very disappointed that the few trees in game were rigid like they were made from iron. Almost nine years later, on nextgen hardware, and we still have metal trees

Maybe this has yet to be implemented but it sticks out like a sore thumb. Given the choice of un-animated vegetation, I'd consider removing it entirely and dropping in something else.

Imagine trees being affected from footsteps of the mechs, leafs wildly dancing when a rocket explodes nearby. It would really add to the immersion.

<s> I hope they use the power of the cloud to move the tree leafs in TitanFall 2. </s>

 

[milk]

This was the first time I actually seen any full-res screenshots of the game. Had just seen the on-line stream from e3 conference this far. And Wow! Is this game UGLY!