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Deleted member 11852
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In cutscenes with fixed cameras, you can contrive lighting how you like. What about all these games now using realtime raytracing?
Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion [2021]
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
Not all games have or want to have non-interactive cut-scenes. Specific cinematographic lighting doesn't even have to be for cutscenes, but can and, IMO, should be used in gameplay depending on the type of game. A horror game, for example.
Sure there are types of games and certain situations where RT won't hurt a certain game aesthetic, but there are also ones which can be harmed by unrestricted lighting.
IMO, how (if) you can very specifically control RT will be important for many game types, IMO.
- Can you limit bounces for each individual light source without it looking weird?
- Can you introduce a hidden light source and not have the whole thing look broken when a player moves the camera around. Not just rotational but in 3D space?
- Is RT even desirable in a game going for cinematographic lighting with artist control while at the same time allowing player agency and control?
Now compound that with a camera that is no longer under the director or cinematographer's control but the artist still requires certain things to be lit a certain way for the feel of a game. It may not be desirable for certain objects within an area to share the same lighting as other things.
Regards,
SB
Why would realtime ray tracing be any different? If you have control of the camera you can add as many lights as you want to get the scene to look how you want it to. It'd be exactly the same as in real life.
Remember that there will most likely be different settings scaling for each of those sticker features. The PC version at max most likely will run those at higher settings.
Aaron Elfassy
Newcomer
Another consideration is games are not film. Its a completely different medium that asks for immersion, especially in narrative heavy games. I crave for a more realistic and immersive experience when I game. The more shadows and movement from light the better. Just like the fascination with muzzle flash shadows, or the stencil shadows froom Doom 3 - all of this brings us closer to simulating reality and transporting us to another world. If the character's is shrouded in darkness and more difficult to read then so be it. But as a game director, that should match the themes of the experience they are creating.
Many film buffs enjoy cinema verite, which is extremely naturalistic, and often filmed/lit more organically and just as their environment provides. Yes, games that are tightly controlled, like COD or other on rails narrative games demand the same tricks that are employed in blockbuster films. But what about the happy accidents that occur through games that heavily rely on system gameplay mechanics and rendering technology? I remember playing the Killzone 2 demo, and toying with the AI and physics based traps in the limited environment that was offered. There were propane tanks stacked in racks that could be chipped away. The tanks would cascade out of the rack and occasionally a tank would ignite and launch in to an enemy, knocking them in to the air in glorious fashion. Killzone 2 heavily mixed precanned mechanics but augmented with realtime physics. That is what I am looking for.
Even naughty dog produces many little systems for gameplay mechanics, animation and even rendering. This leads to an experience that is never always identical to the last, but still allows control for the gameplay designer as they decide the values for the variables they have. For sequences that are heavily produced, rigid and must be exact, the lighting artists can employ similar techniques as film. I find the games that are less systemic (COD) I play once and never again. But games like Last of Us 2 let you toy with the AI, physics based puzzle, etc. Throw in accurate light transport simulation with more AI and physics and I'm sold!
Many film buffs enjoy cinema verite, which is extremely naturalistic, and often filmed/lit more organically and just as their environment provides. Yes, games that are tightly controlled, like COD or other on rails narrative games demand the same tricks that are employed in blockbuster films. But what about the happy accidents that occur through games that heavily rely on system gameplay mechanics and rendering technology? I remember playing the Killzone 2 demo, and toying with the AI and physics based traps in the limited environment that was offered. There were propane tanks stacked in racks that could be chipped away. The tanks would cascade out of the rack and occasionally a tank would ignite and launch in to an enemy, knocking them in to the air in glorious fashion. Killzone 2 heavily mixed precanned mechanics but augmented with realtime physics. That is what I am looking for.
Even naughty dog produces many little systems for gameplay mechanics, animation and even rendering. This leads to an experience that is never always identical to the last, but still allows control for the gameplay designer as they decide the values for the variables they have. For sequences that are heavily produced, rigid and must be exact, the lighting artists can employ similar techniques as film. I find the games that are less systemic (COD) I play once and never again. But games like Last of Us 2 let you toy with the AI, physics based puzzle, etc. Throw in accurate light transport simulation with more AI and physics and I'm sold!
uffff, Doom 3 would be one of those games I would LOVE to see in HDR and RT combined, or just the former, given the deplorable situation of RT right now.Spotlight, obviously - it's a requirement for every small office space. I need it when I lose my pen.
I remember playing Doom 3 for the first time and being amazed at the stark shadowing, but yeah, it's not actually how light illuminates spaces. The bounce lighting in Metro Exodus looks like it's a first step in changing how games can be developed. Would be interesting to see a game designed around this type of GI and using it as a function within the game space.
Alex gave a pretty good indication of what the consoles will be able to offer in his video. For 6700-6800 class GPU's he's recommending the base graphics settings on High, the RT GI on high (CB internal resolution) and of course RT reflections off. I *think* that's at a resolution of 1440p but I wasn't too clear on that point. Since both consoles sit a little below the bottom of that scale. They'll probably have similar settings with possibly the Medium GI setting (quarter resolution) and make up the rest with VRR which I guess would hover around the 1080p - 1440p mark upscaled to 4k.
On pure specs, their around 6700 and 6700XT.
that be a dream come true. Doom 3 is my fav doom game. I actually lost internet in my first apartment because i downloaded the leaked level lol.
Also I tried playing metro before but hate the darkness in it. Its just so hard to see anything and enjoy it. This ray tracing version looks really interesting. i might pick up the game and try it out again
IT would be so incredible. Other games coming from the top of my mind. Alien Isolation with HDR and RT, Resident Evil 2 Re-Remake (RT version with improved HDR, also using SpecialK or Auto HDR could do the trick), and some others I can't think of atm
Unlike movies you aren't going to see a guy holding a boom mic or aiming a spot light. If you want to create a moody scene that's using RT lights, you set the scene up in a way that looks moody with those lights. You can fudge stuff like adding an extra light source in a window so that what would normally be sunlight shining in is more intense, for example, and it wouldn't be immediately noticeable even with full camera control because the outside is supposed to be bright. Or you could create a moody scene in some catacombs by placing lights down tunnels and having the light bounce around corners before getting to the room the player is in. Those tunnels don't need to be player accessible, and those light sources don't have to make sense. Who's burning oil lamps down that dead end tunnel that's inaccessible? Nobody, it's just there to set the mood.Ask yourself, how? How do you light a scene realistically using RT while also aiming to achieve a particular unrealistic lighting aesthetic whilst also allowing the player to freely move the camera around to see the conventional lighting tricks because suddenly hiding lighting impacts the lighting you're seeing as you pan the camera around?
If you can solve this, you could be the greatest Hollywood lighting director of all time.
We are talking about lighting done in a computer game. The lighting model isn't locked into the confines of one model, either. If they want to adjust the lighting in a cut scene, level, or area there's nothing stopping them from doing that either.
Lightings not some huge unsolvable problem guys. You can light with RT just like without RT. You can fake as much as you want. Tons of very skilled people work in the industry wrestling lighting systems into doing what they want. The art direction changes in the metro shots are just that -- art direction changes.
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Deleted member 11852
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You can't pan the camera to see projectors in movies because Director controls what the camera sees. When the player controls the camera, how do you hide all the equipment they use to produce specific lighting looks? Projectors, spot lamps, diffusers etc. Making them all invisible so there are bizarre sighing artifcates everywhere depending on where you're standing and in which direction you're looking?
Light does what it does and it's a lot of effort to not have it do that. Look at how lengths the lighting team go to light a scene in a movie to achieve a specific look. A lot of equipment is used to achieve that look and you can't see it.
You can have a light in ray tracing which is hidden from view - you do not need to actually have a surface in the primary view.
It is weird to see people here acting like ray tracing cannot do lighting set up for artistry purposes - it does that all of course. You can be just as "tricky" with it as with rasterised light set ups. It just does it in a more systemic way that has results align with expectations.
Ray Traced off line CGI in films places lights right next to character faces that are not physical CGI props of lamps!
but that's why people should not complain the game "looks" worse during gameplay, that would be weird to see invisible light sources moving with the character. You could see that effect perfectly in the uncharted 4 mod where you could change the camera angle in the cutscenes, you would see spotlight appearing and desappearing.
then people tend to think models are worse in gameplay than during cutscene when most of the time it's just a matter of lighting and not actual detail.
Tkumpathenurple
Veteran
I think this recent lighting debate is proof of one rather positive thing: lighting artists don't need to look for new jobs.
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Deleted member 11852
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Yeah, you can. I remember watching a Pixar documentary and they explained why this was - and I'm paraphrasing - a motherfucker to do and Pixar again have full control over the camera and can stage the lighting manually on every frame.
You sure can have light coming from invisible nonsensical places but if the aim of RT is have realistic lighting aesthetic then you're wandering into some lighting uncanny valley.
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