Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2023] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

[davis.anthony]

Multiple doesn't mean often or mostly.

Except it is, try watching videos.

They're no where near the 30fps you claimed and so far you've provided no evidence they run at the 30fps you claim.

Ok, what is your point? PS3 and Xbox 360 are trash?

Where did I say that? Please point it out for me.

I watched some moments from video.

And did not see that:

1. They're no where the 30fps you claimed
2. They have moments where they're also below 20fps.

And I played Crysis 2 on Xbox 360, there is only some moments when game is running with low fps.

Some moments? Video evidence suggests they basically spend 90+% of the time below 30fps.

They made great result for consoles what were released 5-6 years before Crysis 2 had 5 times less GPU power and 20 times more RAM.

I disagree, it's impressive they got the games working with such a low amount of RAM but they're not close to a 'great result'

If they were released in 2023 with that performance level they would be classed as being in an unplayable state.

Yeah, and what was your PC specs comparing to consoles?

Doesn't matter, even older GPU's that would be quite cheap to pick-up new/used offer a vastly superior experience to what PS3/360 offered.

Unfortunately for PS3 and 360 they released at a time where PC hardware was massively evolving in terms of features and performance jumps between GPU generations where still large which mean that towards the tail end of their life PS3 and 360 really, really struggled.

 

[Liandry]

Where did I say that? Please point it out for me.

Looks like it.

Some moments?

Some moments below 20 and no moments 10-15 you said before.

If they were released in 2023 with that performance level they would be classed as being in an unplayable state.

Nut they weren't released in 2023. By this logic in 90's no one would even notice.

Doesn't matter, even older GPU's that would be quite cheap to pick-up new/used offer a vastly superior experience to what PS3/360 offered.

And ghere agin that sounds like yhose consoles were trash.

Unfortunately for PS3 and 360 they released at a time where PC hardware was massively evolving in terms of features and performance jumps between GPU generations where still large which mean that towards the tail end of their life PS3 and 360 really, really struggled.

That's very arguably. There always could be better conditions. But nothing is perfect. At least 360 was console near to perfection, PS3 project had some minuses but still was great machine.

 

[davis.anthony]

Looks like it.

Poor argument.

Some moments below 20 and no moments 10-15 you said before.

If there are no moments in 10-15fps range can you explain how I found these instances in the Digital Foundry video I provided?

But they weren't released in 2023. By this logic in 90's no one would even notice.

What?

And there again that sounds like those consoles were trash.

If that's the conclusion you're coming to that's on you.

That's very arguably. There always could be better conditions. But nothing is perfect. At least 360 was console near to perfection, PS3 project had some minuses but still was great machine.

There is nothing remotely arguable with what I said, if there was you would have presented it as a constructive counter argument.

 

[Svensk Viking]

You can't use an assumption that performance wouldn't have been comparable to the consoles as evidence that it wouldn't have been comparable. I agree any game that required DX10 baseline support or that was heavily optimised for a unified shader design obviously wouldn't run well, or at all on any DX9 GPU, but the games you're quoting above launched in 2013/2014 lol. That's 8-9 years after that 7800GTX 512 launched and 7-8 years after DX10 and unified shaders arrived in the PC space. Of course games wouldn't be targeting such an ancient architecture in the PC space by that time. My argument above was very specifically about the DX9 era of games that would have been optimised to run well on the older split shader design GPU's within say the first 2-4 years of it's life. No-one in the PC space was worrying about whether a 7800GTX 512 would run Crysis 3 as well as an Xbox 360 when you could have bought a GTX 670 the year prior which would have been significantly more powerful than the Xbox One, let alone the Xbox 360. I'm saying the 7800GTX 512MB was comparable to the 360 during the time period that it was relevant to PC developers. Had PC hardware never evolved beyond that GPU, and developers continued to target and optimise for it, I'm sure it could have held up fairly well for the life of the console, but that's not the reality of PC hardware or software development.

It is hard to find detailed comparisons of the high-end DX9 GPUs vs the 360, but at the time, I was always curious how they compared in for example Bad Company 2 or Metro 2033, and all the other games four or five years in which still were officially supporting DX9 era GPUs.

This of course is anecdotal, but back then I also got the impression that alot of users on different forums were using Core 2 Duo paired with relatively good GPUs, and wrongfully assumed that their three to four year old 8800GT or HD 4850 were too weak, whereas that was the time when games started really benefitting from quad core.

Crysis 3 in particular though was the first game to require DX11 hw, so it only scaled back to four year old GPUs at the time of release. It getting a PS3 and 360 version but being a no-go on the GTX 280 or HD 4890, that's the kind of move that gives PC its bad reputation for constantly needing to be upgraded.
Then there were other games that weren't identical between PC and console, like The Witcher 2 and Battlefield 3. Though people were reporting TW2 did run on the DX9 Radeon and Geforce cards but had various driver issues essentially making it unplayable.

 

[Liandry]

If there are no moments in 10-15fps range can you explain how I found these instances in the Digital Foundry video I provided?

You said it that like 10-15 most of the time or often. 10-15 is some N64 games.

What?

You said what Crysis 2 performance woud be unplayable if game was released in 2023. But we can make that kid of statements, because everything is actual for time it happened. So if Crysis 2 would've been released in 90's no one would've said what that is poor performance because that time lots of games run with low fps.

If that's the conclusion you're coming to that's on you.

Then tell me please what you wanted to say then you made those statements about PS3 and 360?

There is nothing remotely arguable with what I said, if there was you would have presented it as a constructive counter argument.

I tnk we just misunderstand each other. BTW there is no something offensive in what I said, if you thought about that.

 

[davis.anthony]

You said it that like 10-15 most of the time or often. 10-15 is some N64 games.

I don't care about your attempt at mental gymnastics, multiple times you've made claims about performance and ,multiple times I've proven your claims to be incorrect.

You've gone from saying they run at 30fps and ~30fps, to then saying they run mostly 30 when there is no combat, 25-27 when in combat and rare moments below 25, to then saying they don't go as low as 10-15 in my video when they clearly did.

Why did you not watch the video?

You said what Crysis 2 performance would be unplayable if game was released in 2023.

We have had games released in 2023 with that level of performance and they have been branded as unplayable.

Unless you feel a game that has a frame rate range of 10-30fps and spends nearly all of the time in the high to mid 20's is a 'playable' standard in 2023?

But we can make that kid of statements, because everything is actual for time it happened. So if Crysis 2 would've been released in 90's no one would've said what that is poor performance because that time lots of games run with low fps.

You whataboutism's are irrelevant to what I said.

Then tell me please what you wanted to say then you made those statements about PS3 and 360?

I said what I wanted to say, there was no super secret meaning behind it.

I made a comment, that was it, you need to work on your feelings about my comment.

I tnk we just misunderstand each other. BTW there is no something offensive in what I said, if you thought about that.

I don't take offence to things I see and get told on the interwebs.

 

[iroboto]

I made a comment, that was it, you need to work on your feelings about my comment.

Tone needs mellowing.

He’s just asking questions. If we treat all new comers like this, this forum is gonna be toast.

 

[davis.anthony]

Tone needs mellowing.

He’s just asking questions. If we treat all new comers like this, this forum is gonna be toast.

If all new comers failed to watch provided video's/evidence properly this forum is toast.

 

[iroboto]

If all new comers failed to watch provided video's/evidence properly this forum is toast.

There's always going to be a orientation period to any new community. My preference is to be tolerant of that transition time, than gatekeeping people out for being poor at understanding things they may not necessarily have all the knowledge yet to jump to conclusions as quickly as veteran forum members here.

 

[Liandry]

I'm on this forum for some 8-9 years.
Maybe you remember ps2 an saturn threads, I started those. But that hqve been in 2016 or 2017.
As a reply to davis.anthony, ok my mistake about 30 fps. I have watched some parsts of video. I just remember what when I played Crysis 2 on Xbox 360 I haven't felt it run below 30 fps fir most of the time.

 

[iroboto]

I'm on this forum for some 8-9 years.
Maybe you remember ps2 an saturn threads, I started those. But that hqve been in 2016 or 2017.
As a reply to davis.anthony, ok my mistake about 30 fps. I have watched some parsts of video. I just remember what when I played Crysis 2 on Xbox 360 I haven't felt it run below 30 fps fir most of the time.

Sorry. Lol.

Well, I think it still stands, manners are important in forum culture.

 

[Phantom88]

Tone needs mellowing.

He’s just asking questions. If we treat all new comers like this, this forum is gonna be toast.

You're such a nice guy usually and always working from a positive point and thats awesome. But Liandry with these posts is bringing some real hardcore neogaf/resetera sony worshiping energy with his posts. He's going in circles blowing hot air at the idea of console and how awesome sauce they are. It's very clear if you're used to broader internet forum discussions. Same with a bunch of "newcomers". Neogaf in particular has a thread for every digital foundry video. And that place is like a jungle these days. The lightest perceived slight against sony or nintendo has the users there mock and insult the team at DF, Alex in particular. They've started reading this forum and posting posts from here. A lof of the aggresive newcomers you see posting, im about 98% sure they're from there. Pretending that they're trying to have a discussion, but somehow its always towards how amazing sony is

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Going with the a low cost and outdated tech doesnt provide a good example either.

And yet consoles have proven incredible profitable. So, uhhh.. ?

 

[iroboto]

You're such a nice guy usually and always working from a positive point and thats awesome. But Liandry with these posts is bringing some real hardcore neogaf/resetera sony worshiping energy with his posts. He's going in circles blowing hot air at the idea of console and how awesome sauce they are. It's very clear if you're used to broader internet forum discussions. Same with a bunch of "newcomers". Neogaf in particular has a thread for every digital foundry video. And that place is like a jungle these days. The lightest perceived slight against sony or nintendo has the users there mock and insult the team at DF, Alex in particular. They've started reading this forum and posting posts from here. A lof of the aggresive newcomers you see posting, im about 98% sure they're from there. Pretending that they're trying to have a discussion, but somehow its always towards how amazing sony is

Yes, I recognize that. But we have no power at Neogaf, or other forums like it, and even if I went there to discuss, I'm going to get stonewalled by hundreds of people. Here at B3D we're safe, they can't overrun us, the moderation team is strong here, we remove people who are entirely off topic. Having said that, this is a chance for B3D to educate people from other forums over here if we make it safe for them, and it's safe ground for us since, we have each others back enough to know to call out things when we see it.

We can't change the voices over at other forums, but if other folks are going to come here to have that discussion, that means they want to know more than what's being offered there, it's an opportunity to take back some knowledge here and bring it over there.

So hopefully they see how we treat DF here, how we interact with them is so wildly different than the way they treat them at Neogaf. And how is it that we are so supportive of them here, and they are so negative. Someone coming is going to clue in quickly that it's not our culture to just piss on everything we want to disagree with just because it doesn't suit our narrative. Even now the moderation team is working hard to ensure that we don't have a Nvidia vs AMD thing happening here. It's not easy, in fact, surprisingly, we have a strong console technology section here where the voices are fairly central, and we can support other points of view, even if it's not our console of choice. That's remarkable what we have here, so, to spread that to other forums, by way of seeding forum hoppers, I think that's the way forward for us.

Give them the information, point out where it's wrong and point out where it's true for them. And they'll have a stronger picture of what's happening. Tell them where we don't have any real answers, because none exist. Show them that hardware alone isn't the only factor, that developers play the strongest role in the performance of any title, and how well it's been optimized at release. These are things that should be obvious, but to get that message out is critical. That's why we keep seeing performance patches so much later, it's not a tooling anymore, it can't be, it's a pure priority issue. PS5 has priority, XSX doesn't, PC doesn't.

We're not perfect here either, I'm sure many people don't want to join us for reasons. I mean, NXG topic came up, lol, Davis is hiliarious, he always brings a bazooka to a knife fight. But I mean, we're trying our best to be as central as we can, we have developers here that continue to provide information whenever we're dead wrong.

All good things. The bigger we get, the more of this type of thing we will encounter. But the bigger we get, the more influence we have. More influence will result in more noise, but more influence if controlled correctly could bring back more developers. It's sad that Sebbbi left and MJP, but maybe they'll come back if we fix things here. Just gotta find a way to bring in a culture that they would be interested in contributing to.

 

[Remij]

I've definitely made some wrong judgement calls on a couple posters here who in the beginning I thought were just wanting to start trouble, but after pulling back and just observing a bit and giving them some time to acclimate to the forum and the way things are done here, they revealed themselves to be good posters whose perspectives I enjoy seeing. They weren't bad posters, we just simply disagreed on some things.

 

[see colon]

I've definitely made some wrong judgement calls on a couple posters here

Me too, both when I first got here regarding the established community, and later when I was part of that community.

On a side note, when Liandry said they'd been here for 8+ years I though "me too" ben then I looked it up, and if the profile information is right, it's been nearly 20! How time flies.

 

[trinibwoy]

Almost 20 years for me too. So glad I got to experience the early days of 3D. Progress is a lot slower paced and more incremental now. Back then I thought we would have holodecks by now. So much for that!

 

[Liandry]

Sorry. Lol.

No problem.

But Liandry with these posts is bringing some real hardcore neogaf/resetera sony worshiping energy with his posts.

First, I'm not registered on Neogaf, sometimes read posts there, but that's it.
Secons. I mostly Xbox player. I criticized PS3 a lot and PS4 a little bit. But I admit that Sony make better games in overall than Microsoft. In graphics terms their games on PS3 released same year as Xbox 360 games were with better graphics. On PS4 situation was even better for them, because there was a lot less exclusive games on Xbox One. This gen I think that will be same as in 8th gen. We discuss hardware architecture and how developer work here. We discuss about strong and weak moments in hardware archetectures and developers work. I just don't understand when someone talk about PS2, PS3 and Xbox 360 weakness as that is something what make console not competetive. Despite all those weknesses on those consoles were a lot of games what looked like those shouldn't even run on those machines. I understand then someone talk about console weekness, but not like that is something what will not allow make high detail graphics, complicated physics or weak AI for NPCs and mobs in game for time when game was released. If tht woud've been so, then a lot of top game in each gen would not have been as they were. Of course each console could've been better thai it was. We have what we have and in my opinion some people should pay more respect to console makers, because they put a lot of work in each console creation. Also in my opinion there was only one console what was made almost without compromises. Xbox One X. But that only means what there is always balance between hardware and R&D cost and console makers try to get maximum using budget they have. Exception was original Xbox One. I think due to Kinect what was with each console at start. That used a lot of price cost and in result that console was very underpowered. But still there was ge=reat games on that machine.

 

[Below2D]

As for fps test, that is not 10-15 fps. Mostly 30 when there is no comat. In combat 25-27, rare moments below 25. But I'm sur on PC there is also a lot moments when fps drops.

Looks like it.

Some moments below 20 and no moments 10-15 you said before.


Nut they weren't released in 2023. By this logic in 90's no one would even notice.

And ghere agin that sounds like yhose consoles were trash.

That's very arguably. There always could be better conditions. But nothing is perfect. At least 360 was console near to perfection, PS3 project had some minuses but still was great machine.

Davis Anthony is right, these games aren't 30fps on consoles except for when nothing is happening. They tend to be in the 20-25fps range and drop to the teens during heavy action sequences. I mean, come on.

 

[Below2D]

Oof, those load times.