Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2022] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]

[pjbliverpool]

What do you think of 32 GB RAM requirement of Returnal? Isn't it a bit steep?

There's a discussion around this here:

Post in thread 'Next-Generation NVMe SSD and I/O Technology [PC, PS5, XBSX|S]' https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...o-technology-pc-ps5-xbsx-s.62015/post-2279098

I think its for streaming in lieu of a fast NVMe drive.

 

[T2098]

Which games actually make use of more than 16Gb RAM - with or without an SSD? I'm genuinely curious..

They are still relatively uncommon, but they are there - lots of the larger simulation/RTS type games are system RAM hogs, like Anno 1800:

https://www.reddit.com/r/anno1800/comments/o9ew2r

 

[DavidGraham]

I don't think consoles have anything to do with the change.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this assessment. You may not be following the PC space in that period well enough. But, in reality, the cause of all of this trouble is the 7th generation consoles, X360 and PS3. Ever since they started shipping, and hell broke lose on PC.

1-Games would release on consoles but not PC, with consoles having so many exclusives not available to PCs at all. COD3 never got a PC release to this day!
2-PC had way lower exclusives than ever before, all games migrated to consoles, even strategy and shooters.
3-For Multi-Plat games, PC versions would release much later than console versions, sometimes by up to a year later (GTA V released 18 months later!!!)
4-Many games would release DLCs on consoles alone, and ignore PC completely!
5-PC versions would release with the console versions unchanged, the visual settings unchanged, even the button mappings relied on console controllers and not Keyboard/Mouse!
6-In some games you couldn't even change the resolution from 720p or 1080p, and we started having the great phenomenon of locked fps in PC games, 30fps/60fps lock!
7-The holly grail of unoptimized ports started pouring in, with many games suffering suboptimal performance, and the lack of any visual upgrades over consoles.
8-Games would be released on PCs with older/lesser graphics than consoles, see FIFA, PES and other sport games.
8-Any cutting edge development stopped immediately, no more games with great physics, no more games pushing the visuals to previously unforeseen levels, most games had the same visual makeup of UE2/UE3 era, despite the PC hardware being significantly more powerful than consoles in that era (starting with the mighty GTX 8800).
9-The "consolification" of gameplay and streamlining of game elements for the sake of making the game accessible to consoles (see Crysis 2, .. etc).

Back then, developers migrated to PC in hordes, thinking that Piracy is preventing more sales on PC, and thinking all the money is on consoles, they also thought PC players are the minority in numbers, PCs also cause more headache to develop for with their many configurations, so developers flocked to consoles in droves, where copy and paste games (at least visually) where the norm.

Now developers realized they are so wrong, and everyone is coming back to PC, companies are porting their entire backlogs of unreleased PC games back to PCs, and all the console exclusives are getting released on PC. Steam revolutionized the purchasing experience and showed how PC players are the majority in numbers, not the minority, and that many of them are willing to pay for games, and in fact are not pirates. Several games/developers are also targeting PCs primarily whether from a strong graphical standpoint, or from a free to play perspective. Ray Tracing is helping in this regard tremendously, as immediately after it's inception the amount of tech demos and games released with major visual upgrades over consoles have shot up significantly.

 

[Deleted member 2197]

Several games/developers are also targeting PCs primarily whether from a strong graphical standpoint, or from a free to play perspective. Ray Tracing is helping in this regard tremendously, as immediately after it's inception the amount of tech demos and games released with major visual upgrades over consoles have shot up significantly.

I think there is some truth in devs/studios targeting PC more. The other day I was surprised when I noticed a list of upcoming games whose development work being done on PC.

 

[cwjs]

COD3 never got a PC release to this day!

I promise you, you aren't missing out on anything here

 

[trinibwoy]

As a tech demo I find Portal RTX unsuitable to show whether a current AAA game would work with pathtracing.

Cyberpunk is getting RTXDI and multi-bounce GI in its upcoming Overdrive update. It’s not pure path tracing of course as the RT contribution is layered on top of the baseline rasterized image but it’s a good sign the tech is viable this generation. It’ll be really interesting to see what 4AGames comes up with too given their enthusiasm for unified lighting systems.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I think there are merits to each school of thought, both the PC enthusiast crowd and the console oriented player like myself.

It's true that PC in many cases spearheads technology and always has. Much of the technical progress from engines to hardware would not be possible without the advancements brought in the PC space(whether it's consumer based PC focus or otherwise) But it takes both console and PC to expand gaming as a whole.

And there will remain a market segment that will inevitably be a much more casual less enthusiast segment of the market that will have to be catered to outside of what the bleeding edge can reach with that technology. Both on PC and on console.

As a developer, whether you are comfortable with a base target spec in the consoles, or pushing beyond is a studio dependant thing, but I feel like blaming console for lack of progress while nostalgically looking into the 90s is silly and overly resentful.

Until very recently with reconstruction and frame generation, technologies like path tracing and such really were out of reach even for the most powerful of PCs. and even now, running relatively simple games on full path traced renderers isn't exactly cheap.

Consoles will have their own forms of these technologies on a lower scale, and knowhow from optimizing games on that level will inevitably benefit the industry as a whole to run things perhaps even more efficiently when the baseline raises to fully utilize these technologies in full.

Either way we are moving forward slowly while expanding the gaming market segment in general which is only a good thing imo.

 

[techuse]

I think we are still far away from path tracing being preferable to hybrid rendering.

 

[Below2D]

Back then, developers migrated to PC in hordes, thinking that Piracy is preventing more sales on PC, and thinking all the money is on consoles, they also thought PC players are the minority in numbers, PCs also cause more headache to develop for with their many configurations, so developers flocked to consoles in droves, where copy and paste games (at least visually) where the norm.

They weren't entirely off the mark. PC releases, even big exclusives like Diablo, did numbers that didn't come close to the best-selling console exclusives. But as Gabe Newell said, the problem on PC was never an issue of cost or piracy, it was a service and convenience problem. PC before Steam was an absolute shitshow. While I appreciate the sheer number of cutting-edge exclusives we had back then (the Unreal games, Quake, Thief, DOOM 3, Half-Life/2, F.E.A.R., etc), how to get them to run properly was abysmal. I can't recall the number of times where I installed a game on my PC only to have to download a bunch of drivers and third-party software to get them to run. Never mind the bloatware crap such as Starforce that Ubisoft used on their PC releases back then.

There was no streamlining or standardization. It was a battlefield with every man for himself and you could never tell the quality you were getting, and reviews for PC games were much more scarce than for console. Steam helped tremendously by putting everything in one place and "consolized" the purchasing and installing experience, making it far quicker and easier than before. It's actually one of the reasons I migrated back to PC as my primary gaming platform. It had been from 2001 up until 2008 when I bought my Xbox 360. I then went back to gaming primarily on PC in 2012 and never looked back and don't intend to.

Multiplayer benefitted from this streamlining enormously as well. I had to go to Microsoft's website and create an account there to play a bunch of multiplayer games such as AoE or Asheron's Call.

Microsoft also did a solid job with the device manager for quick and easy installation of drivers, and compatibility between the different parts of the PC also improved tremendously.

 

[Dictator]

I can't recall the number of times where I installed a game on my PC only to have to download a bunch of drivers and third-party software to get them to run.

I find this insane. I own like 8 retro pcs and getting games to run means installing them and clicking play. What on earth? Did you have an unsupported graphics accellerator or something? A Cyrix CPU?

 

[Phantom88]

Yeah, that line made me scratch my head.

Every pc website had a download section back then, before youtube and everything, for trailers, patches, drivers. You just clicked on the latest forceware driver or catalyst if you wanted to update your driver. Or you would get them from the disks that came with magazines. You weren't doing anything extra than you're doing now. Now im just getting the driver from nvidia's website instead of gamespot or ign. I've never in my life installed third party software for anything back then. Pop the disk, hit install once the autorun pops up, play the game.

Even when you look at channels today like LGR, he just takes some 30-40 year old game, installs the stuff thats in the box and just plays the game. PC issues are so overblown it seems to me from the 2000's. Im doing today nearly the exact same thing ive always done, its just more automated

 

[Below2D]

I find this insane. I own like 8 retro pcs and getting games to run means installing them and clicking play.

Not at all. For instance, Prince of Persia 3 came with the Starforce DRM on PC which caused me several issues despite having a legitimate copy of the game. After I stopped bothering, I wanted to get rid of it but couldn't simply uninstall it. I think you had to use the uninstaller provided by the Starforce developer. That was in 2005 or so.

I distinctly recall an issue with AoE II back in 2001, where I signed in with my account to play online and got met with a nice error message to buy a copy every time I tried connecting to a match. Had to jump through a bunch of hoops to get it to work. Also had some problems connecting with friends that didn't have the latest patch because patches weren't necessarily downloaded automatically back then.

There was Fable The Lost Chapters which required Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 which came with the Service Pack 1 of Windows XP that for some reason, I didn't have despite installing it. Had to get it manually and in 2005, googling answers wasn't as easy as it is now.

Also had the GeForce 3 but had a motherboard with a PCI slot and this card only supported AGP but that's a different matter.

A few stories from the 90's as well but I think the point I'm making is pretty clear.

What on earth? Did you have an unsupported graphics accellerator or something? A Cyrix CPU?

I owned multiple CPUs from the mid-90s and onwards. Never owned something out of the ordinary. Intel CPUs and ATI/NVIDIA GPUs. Mostly budget ones such as Semprons and lower-tier GeForce cards. Most PC games were fairly straightforward to install but I had many incidents where I ran into issues. Compared to now, the difference is pretty dramatic. Nowadays, it's exceedingly rare that I experience any problem gaming on a PC. Drivers are a click away, you got entire suites such as the Geforce Experience that (for better or for worse) tell you when a new driver is in. You got the Steam forum for support. Google has a far stronger algorithm than it did back then and finding answers is quick and easy.

Was PC gaming back then some kind of nightmarish experience? No, it worked fine most of the time. Has it gotten far better, streamlined and easier? Absolutely. Nowadays, issues on PC are almost a non-factor barring obvious ones such as your personal favorite; shader compilation stutter.

Speaking from a personal experience. Maybe for you, it was far better and easier.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

They are still relatively uncommon, but they are there - lots of the larger simulation/RTS type games are system RAM hogs, like Anno 1800:

Thanks for responding, although, I was hoping for some hard memory usage numbers because you never know what else is running on a PC to know whether the game is already resource-staved on a 16Gb machine. *cough* Chrome *cough*. Although the latest Chrome has an option for that!

I also play Anna 1800 and have never seen it use more than 7Gb in practise. Ubisoft states it needs no more than 8Gb.

 

[davis.anthony]

I'm more interested in actual GPU performance for Returnal rather than it's RAM requirements.

It uses some weird native 1080p > TAAU > then checkerboard to get to 4k so it's not a 'light' game in terms of rendering load by any means.

Hoping we see FSR2.0 and DLSS added to the PC version.

 

[davis.anthony]

I find this insane. I own like 8 retro pcs and getting games to run means installing them and clicking play. What on earth? Did you have an unsupported graphics accellerator or something? A Cyrix CPU?

As I also own a few retro PC's I can also confirm they're install and play, in fact it's actually depressing how superior gaming on old PC's is compared to now and how games just 'worked' pretty good out the box.

 

[mr magoo]

As I also own a few retro PC's I can also confirm they're install and play, in fact it's actually depressing how superior gaming on old PC's is compared to now and how games just 'worked' pretty good out the box.

I don't know if I can agree on that, I think steam and other clients do a pretty good job at managing and installing everything. Back in the day patching games required you to individually download patches and often apply those in a specific order at the same time installing any extra dependencies like audio libs, compiling stuff c++ blah blah what not. Today you just click play and everything auto magic is installed and works. How it works is another issue (shader comp issues etc).
But the experience itself is far superior and console-like.

 

[Dampf]

I'm more interested in actual GPU performance for Returnal rather than it's RAM requirements.

It uses some weird native 1080p > TAAU > then checkerboard to get to 4k so it's not a 'light' game in terms of rendering load by any means.

Hoping we see FSR2.0 and DLSS added to the PC version.

Yeah, very interested in that one. On PS5 it uses HW-Raytracing to accelerate their GI solution, so I wonder if GPUs capable of HW-RT are running faster automatically. I sure hope so. @Dictator Another very interesting 5700 vs 2060S comparison I'd like to see!

 

[Deleted member 11852]

As I also own a few retro PC's I can also confirm they're install and play, in fact it's actually depressing how superior gaming on old PC's is compared to now and how games just 'worked' pretty good out the box.

There is a period of PC games, which mostly seems to span the DirectX 6 to Direct X 8 period, where many games often required a very specific build of DirectX and will need that particular version downloaded before you can run them. If you cast your mind back, this was a period when most games never received an online update, they shipped with a game code build using whatever version of the DirectX SDK was used in development and there were a lot of them!

Once you have those versions of DirectX, it's fine - it's just every time you first encounter a game that wants exactly build 6.003.271 rather than 6.004.976, Windows will download that driver set. DirectX drivers versions are like Pokémon - you gotta catch 'em all.

 

[Below2D]

I don't know if I can agree on that, I think steam and other clients do a pretty good job at managing and installing everything. Back in the day patching games required you to individually download patches and often apply those in a specific order at the same time installing any extra dependencies like audio libs, compiling stuff c++ blah blah what not. Today you just click play and everything auto magic is installed and works. How it works is another issue (shader comp issues etc).
But the experience itself is far superior and console-like.

Funny to see all the different experiences. PC gaming to me certainly had a lot more issues back then than now. Now, I can probably count the number of problems I ran into over the last 5 years on one hand.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I don't know if I can agree on that, I think steam and other clients do a pretty good job at managing and installing everything. Back in the day patching games required you to individually download patches and often apply those in a specific order at the same time installing any extra dependencies like audio libs, compiling stuff c++ blah blah what not. Today you just click play and everything auto magic is installed and works. How it works is another issue (shader comp issues etc).
But the experience itself is far superior and console-like.

It was even worse for some games that didn't check to verify that you had the correct version installed and patched before it started its patching process. Then you get done and get an error that X file is missing or an incorrect verison. And you couldn't just get that version from someone else's install because then you'd get an error that Y files is missing or an incorrect version. Rinse and repeat. It was easier just to completely start over and make sure you got all the patches installed in the correct order.

It got to the point where I'd make a backup of the install every time I was finished patching so that if I came back to the game later and there were 5 patches waiting to be installed, at most I'd only have to redo those 5 patches if I forgot one rather than all the patches since the game had released.

Not all games were that bad, but when you ran into one, man was it aggravating.

Steam just made PC gaming so much nicer in that respect. Even if you'd missed 10 patches since the last time you played, you just update the game and it's good to go.

Regards,
SB