When I look at the fully Ray Traced RTX Racer I struggle with the concept that HWRT can't work with dense geometry. It's also right there in the PC version of the Matrix City demo.
Current Generation Games Analysis Technical Discussion [2022] [XBSX|S, PS5, PC]
- Thread starter BRiT
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FF hardware is needed for legacy support though. And then when your GPU has FF hardware, your engine needs to use it to get the most from it. Hence it's a catch 22, like many 'standards' we find ourselves stuck with. Progress is always hampered by having to maintain the past, and clean breaks are few and far between.
Yes but Fortnite need to runs on tons of hardware. I doubt games running only on current gen consoles and PC will not use Nanite and Lumen.
When I see this tweet I am sure the studio want to use Nanite or Lumen, same for Harada of Tekken Team very happy about UE 5 and to be one of the best looking game from a graphical point of view or Bloober team saying they use Nanite and Lumen.
I am sure CD Projekt and Crystal Dynamics will use Nanite and Lumen(software or hardware RT).
The demo you mentioned makes plenty of cheats to geometry detail. Most of the ground in the demos consist of planar surfaces and there's quite a few indoor objects that can be approximated with the shape of cuboids as well. There's cheating too happening with the acceleration structure since most of the geometry isn't dynamic or deforming so you basically don't have to rebuild or update your acceleration structure as much. The demo you described is one of the better cases for ray tracing ...
I don't think the demo is going to be representative as to what a developers would actually do with Nanite. Nanite makes it virtually impossible to use RT shadows with proxy meshes since it'll exhibit objectionable rendering artifacts. Also ray tracing against full detailed Nanite meshes isn't performant enough and acceleration structure rebuild/updates would be ridiculously slow for highly detailed dynamic objects. In UE5, virtual shadow mapping is going to be the only scalable option in the foreseeable future as opposed to RT shadows especially with the upcoming support for Nanite foliage ...
Its always 'cheating' regarding graphics in games. Even ray tracing. Its not real.
The cheating starts to become an issue once it's incompatible with specific content. Even The Coalition's alpha point demo was using virtual shadow mapping ...
Inuhanyou
Veteran
Man what nostalgia trip. I remember in the 360 and PS3 gen tesselation was like one of the biggest pc exclusive features I thought was the coolest thing. A true "next gen technology", that simulated tons of detail that you could never have imagined on console in that era.
I'm glad with games like god of war and demon souls remake we are finally seeing real examples of this tech widely used outside of edge PC cases
Demon soul's remake use a compute tessellation like The remake of SOTC on PS4 used it for water and sand and probably the same for God of War snow
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Page 28 Improvement made between SOTC and Demon Soul's Remake
EDIT: It would be cool if Bluepoint could do a Bloodborne remake it would look better than Demon's Soul remake and be able to play it at 60 fps without framepacing problem would be great.
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DavidGraham
Veteran
I've heard these same arguments two years ago, Nanite used software Lumen only back then, many people though that HW-RT is redundant now, the Anti-RT crowd especially. Fast forward 1 year later (in 2021), and we have a fully functioning HW-RT implementation in UE5, used extensively in the best demo out there "The Matrix demo". In 2022, more RT enhancements were made, improving HW-RT even further. So, .. don't listen to these arguments.
Even Nanite was only limited to static geometry too, didn't even support foliage, 2 year later and it does. Nanite itself was also an impossibility a couple of years prior, but here we are with a succesfful incarnation of dense geometry in games.
We have the hardware now, fast and full of excessive computing power, the software is the true limitation right now, but luckily it's the easiest one to enhance, improve, adapt and circumvent .. and it's happening now as we speak, as evident by the 3 examples above.
So, don't listen to these arguments, I never do.
Inuhanyou
Veteran
I am mixed on a Bloodborne remake. Update some of the textures, higher res and fps and I think it's good without a full on graphical overhall.
The art direction and general graphical quality of Bloodborne is still great unlike demon souls which showed it's age in a lot of places. But it does need a fps and res boost to become timeless I think but a remaster I think fits better
I talk about Remake it is not on the art side but to use the same technology than Demon's souls remake. It is possible to improve the tech too, they were not using primitive shader and in the GDC technical presentation they said they want to use it for improve the tesselation and geometry on the next game.
For DS they were doing their own concept art because they needed to reimagine the game. This is not the case for Bloodborne, they just need to keep the same art direction but improve the technology and make the game looks at least as good as DS remake.
I saw some video comparison of Dark soul's 3 and Bloodborne against DS remake and from a technological point of view the games are far behind.
EDIT:
Bluepoint Games Demon's Souls Art Blast - ArtStation Magazine
Demon’s Souls was released just a couple of weeks ago, and we here at Bluepoint are absolutely blown away from the wave of positive response that we’ve received. This game is a testament to the hard work and dedication that this talented team poured into this project. Remakes are inherently...
magazine.artstation.com
Here you can find the concept art of Bluepoint
Dont forget that nVidia has updated the RT Cores with the Micro-Mesh Engine to use geometry compression. Hardware RT on a 4090 is now over 5x faster than the 2080TI and >10x better than the PS5. The pace of advancements has outpaced the software solutions. nVidia's RTX Racer uses a pathtracing engine and gets 1080p/60FPS.
DavidGraham
Veteran
RTXDI (ray traced lighting and shadows) works well with Nanite in UE5, as shown in the recent NvRTX branch illustration.
PS4 did not have the SSD but without streaming, shadow maps and programmable materials system the first working prototype of the software rasterizer was running on a PS4 Pro. Foliage is possible because of compute shader and programmable rasterization.
Two games are running with UE 5 and it is more interesting than a UE5 demo and they don't use HW-RT, Tekken 8 and Silent Hill 2.
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Nanite doesn't only apply to static meshes, it applies to any meshes with fixed topologies like we see in Valley of the Ancient where the ancient's armor are Nanite meshes stitched on top of it's skeletal mesh. The bottleneck with ray tracing will quickly go from ray traversal/intersection/hit shading to maintaining the acceleration structure itself in these cases ...
Virtual shadow mapping or sample distribution shadow mapping could prove to be very powerful alternatives to RT shadows. Hard to argue against these techniques since they work with any scene (dynamic or high detail) and give more predictable performance (no acceleration structure) with sub-pixel accurate shadowing too ...
Virtual shadow mapping or sample distribution shadow mapping could prove to be very powerful alternatives to RT shadows. Hard to argue against these techniques since they work with any scene (dynamic or high detail) and give more predictable performance (no acceleration structure) with sub-pixel accurate shadowing too ...
The problem of RT shadow in UE 5 is simple. This is not possible to use HW raytracing directly with nanite polygons format, it means inaccurate shadows because of the usage of proxy geometry. Virtual shadow maps are pixel accurate...
It doesn't mean that RT Shadows don't work, they are just non accurate...
It doesn't mean that RT Shadows don't work, they are just non accurate...
DavidGraham
Veteran
Please don't say two games, these are not released yet, sill in early development, they will be released after several years, which means there is a high chance of them adding HW-RT on PC -at least- down the line, they could also add HW-RT after the release like so many other RT games. Some current RT games are adding RT even 2 years after release. Some are adding it even 3 years after release (RE2 Remake), Resident Evil 7 added it 5 years after release.
I don't get this really, this incessant desire to make definitive statement about something that is constantly being changed and improved upon, even when these statement go against current events and reality .. Fact is, UE5 is embracing HW-RT and is constantly enhancing it, games using all engines are adding RT even reterospectively. Software techniques are changing continuously to allow HW-RT and it's adoption is accelerated into path tracing even, after the release of RTX Remix, there will be tons of mods to remaster old games with amazing visuals.
Reality goes against these strange statement. So execuse me again, I really really don't get this.
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Tekken 8 and Silent hill 2 are 2023 games. Again embrace RT doesn't mean it is currently a great solution. First like i said HW RT shadows with Nanite is an inferior solution compared to virtual shadow maps. This is the reality. RDNA 3 or Nvidia 4000 series and Intel A series GPU don't solve this and HW-RT and DX RT API need huge overhaul to do it.
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