Cure yourself from homosexuality!

[Legion]

Fine fine. You baited me into it.

First, homosexuality isn't uniquely human. It has been documented in numerous animal species as well. I doubt their environmental situations are similar to ours.

Point? Their psychological and behavioral make up is far different from ours as well. Scientists have yet to narrow down gene(s) in animals or humans that causes homosexuality. At best, they manipulated the brains of fruit flies and rats to affect their instinctual responses to various stimuli. Even with this said, their research is highly paradoxical. In many cases they'll label the male rat on the receiving end of the homosexual encounter as "gay" but not the administer. Why is that? Because they know the male administering is only responding in an instinct based manner to another male's stimuli response of lordosis. Much is the same with the fruit flies.

Second, homosexuality has existed in every culture humanity has ever created over thousands of years.

You do not know this nor can you even confirm this. This is a myth born of the presumption homosexuality is genetic. In otherwords its a circular argument.

It's not like it just popped up after the sexual revolution.

No, but it has certainly been thus incouraged.

You always start off with the supposition that homosexuality is an error. Maybe, just maybe, the reason why nothing makes sense to you is because you're going about it in the wrong way. But hey, don't let me stop you from believing what you want to believe.

It makes perfect sense that it is an error if it is genetic. It doesn't lead to child birth and couldn't be transmitted sexually. Also, genetic transmittion tests prove it is not herditary. Just look at the alledge 5-10% of the world populas alledged to be gay. Thats hardly inline with the idea that sexual orientation is a dimorphic genetic predisposition.

 

[nelg]

Hey a dog humped my leg. I guess that bestiality is genetic.

 

[Legion]

Hey a dog humped my leg. I guess that bestiality is genetic.

now all you have to do is form a lobby

 

[digitalwanderer]

Fine fine. You baited me into it.

First, homosexuality isn't uniquely human. It has been documented in numerous animal species as well. I doubt their environmental situations are similar to ours.

Point?

His point was to negate Vince's "homosexuality is unique to humanity" claim.

Second, homosexuality has existed in every culture humanity has ever created over thousands of years.

You do not know this nor can you even confirms this. This is a myth born of the presumption homosexuality is genetic. In otherwords its a circular argument.

Can you specify one culture where there was no homosexuality? :|

 

[Natoma]

Point? Their psychological and behavioral make up is far different from ours as well. Scientists have yet to narrow down a genes in animals or humans that causes homosexuality. At best, they manipulated the brains of fruit flies and rats to affect their instinctual responses to various stimuli. Even with this said, their research is highly paradoxical. In many cases they'll label the male rat on the receiving end of the homosexual encounter as "gay" but not the administer. Why is that? Because they know the male administering is only responding in an instinct based manner to another male's stimuli response of lordosis. Much is the same with the fruit flies.

You answered your own question. If you can immediately rule out psychology and behavior, what's left as a point of common ground? Genetics. And since nearly all species on this planet are very closely related genetically, if not all, well......

Second, homosexuality has existed in every culture humanity has ever created over thousands of years.

You do not know this nor can you even confirms this. This is a myth born of the presumption homosexuality is genetic. In otherwords its a circular argument.

One can always tell the behaviors of a society by the laws and art they leave behind.

It's not like it just popped up after the sexual revolution.

No, but it has certainly been thus incouraged.

Did you miss my small print nod to Sabastian?

You always start off with the supposition that homosexuality is an error. Maybe, just maybe, the reason why nothing makes sense to you is because you're going about it in the wrong way. But hey, don't let me stop you from believing what you want to believe.

It makes perfect sense that it is an error if it is genetic. It doesn't lead to child birth and couldn't be transmitted sexually. Also, genetic transmittion tests prove it is not herditary. Just look at the alledge 5-10% of the world populas alledged to be gay. Thats hardly inline with the idea that sexual orientation is a dimorphic genetic predisposition.

There are a lot of things that don't lead to child birth that are genetically passed on. And of course there's that little problem of straight men and women who simply choose not to have kids. Guess they're defective too.

 

[Vince]

His point was to negate Vince's "homosexuality is unique to humanity" claim.

Ohh yeah, that went far. BTW; where are your responces to me? They're piling up...

 

[Natoma]

Hey a dog humped my leg. I guess that bestiality is genetic.

Hey now you forgot inanimate objects too.

 

[digitalwanderer]

BTW; where are your responces to me? They're piling up...

What do you want a response to? I don't usually even waste my time reading your posts all the way thru, but I'll be glad to respond to something for you if you ask nicely.

 

[Legion]

His point was to negate Vince's "homosexuality is unique to humanity" claim.

I would agree and disagree. It all depends on how you define homosexuality. There is no clear set of standards and many researchers are guilty of fudging their results on said grounds (LeVay labeling bisexuals as gays).

Can you specify one culture where there was no homosexuality? :|

This is backwards reasoning. You are assuming every culture has had it. You do not have evidence of this. You need to systematically prove all cultures have had homosexuality. Provide documented evidence please.

 

[Vince]

You answered your own question. If you can immediately rule out psychology and behavior, what's left as a point of common ground? Genetics. And since nearly all species on this planet are very closely related genetically, well......

HA! Natoma, common.... think. It's obviously not genetic, the proof is in the facts. What you still have yet to grasp from my posts is that underlying those differential behavors and psychologies are the same fundimantal hormones, neurotransmitters and other enviromentally controlled variabled.

There are a lot of things that don't lead to child birth that are genetically passed on. And of course there's that little problem of straight men and women who simply choose not to have kids. Guess they're defective too.

Yes, this is true. There are many such genetic problems which manifest themselves in the ability to reproduce viable offspring. And they are abnormalities, they're problems, they are natures fuckups which slipped past the last 4 billion years of evolution into error correction and creating the most optimal strategy to reproduce.

People who are attracted to the opposite sex, but just choose not to have sex aren't defective. Their working in perfect condition, in fact, their working so well they've found that their best strategy is to not have children - wow, an advance. Too bad it's not analogous with people who have physical defects and are wrongly attracted to the same sex, thereby never allowing the potentiality of reproduction to happen at all.

 

[digitalwanderer]

I would agree and disagree. It all depends on how you define homosexuality.

Well it ain't all that tricky, I kind of define it as a guy who likes to have sex with another guy instead of a girl...what's so complicated about that? :|

Can you specify one culture where there was no homosexuality? :|

This is backwards reasoning. You are assuming every culture has had it. You do not have evidence of this. You need to systematically prove all cultures have had homosexuality. Provide documented evidence please.

No, you can disprove his statement by just providing one example of a single culture that did not contain homosexuality...I anxiously await your proof. 8)

 

[Natoma]

Can you specify one culture where there was no homosexuality? :|

This is backwards reasoning. You are assuming every culture has had it. You do not have evidence of this. You need to systematically prove all cultures have had homosexuality. Provide documented evidence please.

And in the ultimate back handed slap at circular reasoning, you are assuming the opposite, without proof that it's not true. You have to systematically prove that not all cultures have had homosexuality. Provide documented evidence please.

Hence, the reason why I wrote earlier,

And of course here's the part where I say "And I believe the evidence indicates the contrary. what's your 'evidence'" and you say "blah blah blah blah blah" and I respond "blah blah blah blah blah" and this goes on for another 30 pages of ever lengthening posts.

And you wonder why I just don't bother with discussions like these anymore, save for times like now when I allow myself to be baited into them.

 

[Legion]

You answered your own question. If you can immediately rule out psychology and behavior, what's left as a point of common ground? Genetics. And since nearly all species on this planet are very closely related genetically, if not all, well......

No, i didn't. I pointed out what they documented as "homosexual behavior" is nothing more than an instinctual response. Humans have no recorded sexual instincts. These can not be labeled as sexual behaviors in the same way human sexual behavior can because of the simplistic nature of the act. I likewise pointed out the contradictory nature of their findings. Why not label the adminstering rat as homosexual? Because they know damn well it is only responding to lordosis. It can't be classified as gay because there isn't anything within the act that leads one to assume the rat is uniquely targeting males for mating.

The only reasoning behind labeling the male receiving the act as homosexual only because it is the receiver. Nothing more nothingless. Those very rats will engage in heterosexual sex themselves. So the whole test is a farce.

One can always tell the behaviors of a society by the laws and art they leave behind.

Cop out. Prove that every culture has had homosexuality.

Did you miss my small print nod to Sabastian?

I ignored it.

There are a lot of things that don't lead to child birth that are genetically passed on. And of course there's that little problem of straight men and women who simply choose not to have kids. Guess they're defective too.

Oh come now, this is a cop out as well. We are discussing mating strategies here Natoma. Homosexuality does not lead to sucesssful mating thusly genes attributed to their homosexuality could not be passed on. Even if it were a recessive trait the heritibility rates within offspring has been proven to lack any correlation to genetics.

 

[Natoma]

You answered your own question. If you can immediately rule out psychology and behavior, what's left as a point of common ground? Genetics. And since nearly all species on this planet are very closely related genetically, well......

HA! Natoma, common.... think. It's obviously not genetic, the proof is in the facts. What you still have yet to grasp from my posts is that underlying those differential behavors and psychologies are the same fundimantal hormones, neurotransmitters and other enviromentally controlled variabled.

Where do you think hormones and neurotransmitters get their instructions to do what they do.

There are a lot of things that don't lead to child birth that are genetically passed on. And of course there's that little problem of straight men and women who simply choose not to have kids. Guess they're defective too.

Yes, this is true. There are many such genetic problems which manifest themselves in the ability to reproduce viable offspring. And they are abnormalities, they're problems, they are natures fuckups which slipped past the last 4 billion years of evolution into error correction and creating the most optimal strategy to reproduce.

People who are attracted to the opposite sex, but just choose not to have sex aren't defective. Their working in perfect condition, in fact, their working so well they've found that their best strategy is to not have children - wow, an advance. Too bad it's not analogous with people who have physical defects and are wrongly attracted to the same sex, thereby never allowing the potentiality of reproduction to happen at all.

What does physical attraction have to do with anything? Why is that relevant? I want children. Guess what, if invitro or artificial insemination wasn't available, I'd have sex with some woman and voila. I've passed on my seed. Physical attraction to someone of the same sex doesn't diminish my wish to have children in any way shape or form.

In fact, that was a huge problem for me because I knew I was gay when I was younger, but I didn't know how that'd work out for me wrt having kids. I'm not infertile ya know.

 

[epicstruggle]

You may not like the facts but other groups of people have had it worse.

Trying to determine who has it the worst is a rather fruitless, pointless endeavor. IMO. But in all honesty I would hate being a black gay man in this country, but of course I would cure that situation if I were born into it by watching countless reruns of Dukes of Hazard.

First, Natoma any chance you could tell me where I missed your point?

Now, i have no idea what a black gay man goes through in life. But any average ugly fat straight guy/gal goes through worse. Ive seen how badly they get treated. Almost every tv show has no problem poking fun at them, ridiculing them for cheap laughs. When was the last time you heard of a show that actively ridiculed blacks or gays?

later,
epic

 

[digitalwanderer]

HA! Natoma, common.... think. It's obviously not genetic, the proof is in the facts. What you still have yet to grasp from my posts is that underlying those differential behavors and psychologies are the same fundimantal hormones, neurotransmitters and other enviromentally controlled variabled.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It really sort of sounds like you're talking out of your butt trying to imply something, but I'll be buggered if I can figure it out or if I think even you know.

Yes, this is true. There are many such genetic problems which manifest themselves in the ability to reproduce viable offspring. And they are abnormalities, they're problems, they are natures fuckups which slipped past the last 4 billion years of evolution

You really shouldn't think of yourself that way Vince, I'm sure you'll find someone someday.

 

[Legion]

And in the ultimate back handed slap at circular reasoning, you are assuming the opposite, without proof that it's not true. You have to systematically prove that not all cultures have had homosexuality. Provide documented evidence please.

Hence, the reason why I wrote earlier,

actually no. I am not assuming anything. I stated the matter can not be proven and the concept of historical homosexuality is proffered by the gay lobby much like feminists proffer the Goddess culture myths.

And you wonder why I just don't bother with discussions like these anymore, save for times like now when I allow myself to be baited into them.

I know why you don't, you just haven't admitted you can't substantiate your arguments yet.

 

[Vince]

Where do you think hormones and neurotransmitters get their instructions to do what they do.

They are variable, depending upon their oaganization which is enviromentally molded. Ergo my first responces to Digiwander on self-organizing systems. There just isn't enough room in DNA to fit such information which is situation dependant, all they have is their basic constructs coded for - which we all have. The problem is in their bias/abundance or lack of... which is enviromantal to a wide degree - was a good thought though.

What does physical attraction have to do with anything? Why is that relevant? I want children. Guess what, if invitro or artificial insemination wasn't available, I'd have sex with some woman and voila. I've passed on my seed. Physical attraction to someone of the same sex doesn't diminish my wish to have children in any way shape or form.

In fact, that was a huge problem for me because I knew I was gay when I was younger, but I didn't know how that'd work out for me wrt having kids. I'm not infertile ya know.

I know, but this doesn't change your beliefs, desires and faulty strategy. Again, as I stated previously, this is nothing but a case of modern society masking the fact that we're just animals under it all - and homosexuality is a fault in biological reasoning assuming it's not a mechanism to keep genes out of the pool.

 

[Natoma]

First, Natoma any chance you could tell me where I missed your point?

Trying to make comparisons of who's got it worse. That was the first step.

Now, i have no idea what a black gay man goes through in life. But any average ugly fat straight guy/gal goes through worse. Ive seen how badly they get treated. Almost every tv show has no problem poking fun at them, ridiculing them for cheap laughs. When was the last time you heard of a show that actively ridiculed blacks or gays?

You're joking right?

 

[digitalwanderer]

Where do you think hormones and neurotransmitters get their instructions to do what they do.

They are variable, depending upon their oaganization which is enviromentally molded.

Uhm, no.

They are the limits within which the environment develops with, they are not "organized" by the environment!

Ergo my first responces to Digiwander on self-organizing systems. There just isn't enough room in DNA to fit such information which is situation dependant, all they have is their basic constructs coded for - which we all have. The problem is in their bias/abundance or lack of... which is enviromantal to a wide degree - was a good thought though.

No, but DNA does store tendancies and traits which wil determine how someone will react in a situation.

Dude, GET A CLUE!!!! You obviously have a brain, I just wish you'd start using it for something. :?