Criterion Podcast on 360/PS3 development

Need to separate their personal opinion from their professional take though.

Depending on their specific experiences, we did have quite a few insightful posts regarding the raised issues (including developers disagreeing with developers). Most of the time, it's something we already know but expressed in different forms.

I am just happy that things have improved on the PS3 dev tool side. Really look forward to second gen games from folks who did their first games using primitive, unstable tools (e.g., Naughty Dog and Insomniac).
 
inefficient said:
If build up your case based on one single developers experiences, it just makes it easier for people to dismiss you.
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It's not just Joker's experience though, it's mine too! And I've worked on pretty much every console that's been on the market for the last 10 years, so yeah I have actual experience on the hardware including PS3.

nAo did argue with Joker about RSX and what not but I don't remember Joker conceding that he was wrong. I'm sure Joker will correct me if I'm mistaken.

I agree that after a lot of massaging of your data and shaders and a healthy help from some SPU preprocessing you can match and possibly beat the 360 GPU. But I think that proves a different point that you guys are trying to make.

Anyways, I'm not going to comment on RSX performance anymore since I don't think that's moving the argument anywhere. I welcome you guys to spend some time programming both machines and then we can talk about advanced rendering tricks and cool stuff, but this performance stuff is getting old.

And I admit I didn't listen to the podcast, I just responded based on the summary, so if it was off base I apologize.
 
Ok, I admit I am a bit late to the party, but as a matter of fact this is the Console Technology forum. So the underhanded ad hominem by some posters need to stop right now. It's a matter of courtesy to actually listen to the points raised by the guys in the know instead of attacking them.

If you got a technical issue you want to discuss about be my guest / B3D's guest.

But if you want to settle a score, I can only assure you we, the mods, will settle it for you and not always in your favour.
 
Barbarian said:
And I admit I didn't listen to the podcast, I just responded based on the summary, so if it was off base I apologize.
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I'm just asking because they went out of their way to be fair to both parties. Maybe even too much either way so that they smoothed out more edges than reflects reality. I tried to read between the lines a little bit, but that may still very much do an unjustice to what they tried to say.

It would be great if you could listen to it, it's a very short and compact podcast anyway (just 30 minutes and with a focussed topic).
 
Barbarian, don't waste your time. People will argue with you until their blue in the face simply because they don't like what you have to say.
Please don't let this stop you from discussing the PS3 and other systems. The internet is full of bullshitters, so it's nice to have people who actually know what they're talking about.
 
chachi said:
This is what the PS3 port to 360 advocates seem to never understand, it's great for the PS3 because they don't have to see a superior version on another console but considering how many more copies 360 games typically sell it doesn't make much sense unless you're getting paid by Sony or are just an outright Sony fanboy like Alex Ward.
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Oblivion?
 
yeah but as they said in the podcast, the only way the PS3 was the "lead platform" was that they had more Sony devkits and the media shown was on PS3. other than that, both versions were simultaneously developed (like what IW did with CoD4), and in doing so, both versions turned out virtually identical.
 
almighty said:
Oblivion?
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woundingchaney said:
Kind of a skewed comparison with a considerable amount of time between Oblivion versions on the consoles. I believe he was speaking on simultaneous released titles.
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I didn't mean that the PS3 would never see better looking or performing titles than the 360, just that the only way to assure that you never saw inferior PS3 versions would be to design it for the PS3 and the port it to the 360.

If the same principles that make a game better on the PS3 make it better on the 360 (as has been claimed) then the opposite is true as well. In other words, evangelize the technique, not the platform. Developers who have talked about this previously have been a little disingenuous since they have tended to have a vested interest (like either in a business sense or an emotional connection like Alex Ward has).

I'd like to see developers stop going for the lowest common denominator, if the PS3 has a CPU advantage then use it for interesting things. If the 360 has more texture memory then use it to make the game look better.
 
chachi said:
I'd like to see developers stop going for the lowest common denominator, if the PS3 has a CPU advantage then use it for interesting things. If the 360 has more texture memory then use it to make the game look better.
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The problem there is if you are designing multi-platform you don't want one to distinguish itself over the other, because more so than leading to good sales on one platform it will lead to bad sales on the other.

Say for example someone were to make a game which has better AI on the PS3 but better graphics on the 360. Equal effort on both platforms. Reviewers take their 10-20 hours or whatever with the game, but for whatever reason notice only that the graphics are noticeably better on the 360. PS3 owners would see in reviews that it looks better on the 360 and many would pass on the title feeling they are getting the short end of the stick. (or perhaps they only notice the better AI on the ps3 but think the graphics are similar, same result reversed doesn't really matter). The point is that effort by the developer to utilize the strengths of each system could well be seen as a negative when it comes to their bottom line. They obviously want the game as good as possible on both systems, but distinguishing the versions would ultimately lead to the comparisons, and the negatives always seem to carry a lot further than the positives with the media.

So while your thought is noble, the developers have their reasons to be careful, and keep coding to the least common denominator.
 
Well, in that instance it would be up to the developers to make sure they tell the reviewers what the differences are so they keep an eye out for it.
 
Discussion about pixel shader will be always avoided. ;)


Anyway... The podcast was interesting, but it was too obvious they got paid by Sony in some way or in another...

Both system are similar indeed, but the difference of power is suggestive.
 
I just don't understand...if the ps3 was holding the 360 back graphically why doesn't the first Burnout(revenge) on 360 look miles better or at least on par with Burnout(paradise)?

Kudos to the devs both version look good imo.
 
2real4tv said:
I just don't understand...if the ps3 was holding the 360 back graphically why doesn't the first Burnout(revenge) on 360 look miles better or at least on par with Burnout(paradise)?

Kudos to the devs both version look good imo.
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because it didn't. at least we have no proof of that. devs said they were pretty much developed simultaneously... but they could just be saying that of course.
 
2real4tv said:
I just don't understand...if the ps3 was holding the 360 back graphically why doesn't the first Burnout(revenge) on 360 look miles better or at least on par with Burnout(paradise)?

Kudos to the devs both version look good imo.
Click to expand...

I don't really think anyone ever said that the PS3 was overall weaker than the 360, only that the effort required to attain it. The Criterion groups methods could be seen to confirm that as they had more ps3 devkits in use.
 
AlphaWolf said:
I don't really think anyone ever said that the PS3 was overall weaker than the 360, only that the effort required to attain it. The Criterion groups methods could be seen to confirm that as they had more ps3 devkits in use.
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Well imo I feel its a win-win that more studios get familiar with ps3 architecture at least for ps3 customers/gamers. I understand its costly for developers and hopefully ps3 fans will start to purchase more games.
 
Mr Deap said:
Discussion about pixel shader will be always avoided. ;)


Anyway... The podcast was interesting, but it was too obvious they got paid by Sony in some way or in another...

Both system are similar indeed, but the difference of power is suggestive.
Click to expand...

Dont make me laugh...
 
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