Could multiple Xenon SKUs work?
- Thread starter wco81
- Start date
jvd said:
Wow, and you get mad at Sony fans for setting their sights way too high.
Anyway, I think that going for the flash-based cards will be what Sony and MS will be doing next gen. They´re big enough for things such as patching. MMORPGs will have to find a way to work without being such space hogs.
Only thing about 720p is that there aren't that many displays which natively support 720p. Most will upconvert to 1080i. It seems some of the early HDTV models sold in the US a few years back supported 720p and then the market went towards 1080i.
Now, some fixed-pixel displays like plasmas and LCDs are near 720p resolution, having 1300-plus pixels by 768 pixels or so. But even these displays are expected to migrate to 1080p.
That would mean a 720p60 signal source would be converted to 1080p24 in all likelihood. 1080p displays are going to be expensive enough at first. Not sure how soon, if ever, they will have 1080p60 displays.
Now, some fixed-pixel displays like plasmas and LCDs are near 720p resolution, having 1300-plus pixels by 768 pixels or so. But even these displays are expected to migrate to 1080p.
That would mean a 720p60 signal source would be converted to 1080p24 in all likelihood. 1080p displays are going to be expensive enough at first. Not sure how soon, if ever, they will have 1080p60 displays.
Almasy said:
Wow, and you get mad at Sony fans for setting their sights way too high.
Anyway, I think that going for the flash-based cards will be what Sony and MS will be doing next gen. They´re big enough for things such as patching. MMORPGs will have to find a way to work without being such space hogs.
Not high at all .
You can buy a 80 gig tivo for 200$ , as low as 150$ if you wait for one of thier rebates .
I highly doubt it costs anywhere near that much to make .
I'm not the one who is expecting a tflop chip in there , a half a gig of ram and a huge nvidia chip in there.
I'm looking more along the lines of a 500$ ssystem sold at 300$ that can quickly drop in price.
The stand-alone Tivos are subsidized because of the subscription. IOW, the retail price is close to the manufacturing cost. Or the cost may even be higher.
That's definitely the case with the Direct Tivos, which can be had well-under $100 now with a 1-year programming commitment for new Direct TV subscribers.
The whole PVR space is becoming commoditized. People are willing to settle for PVRs offered by the cable companies for $5/month lease even if the features and interface are basic.
So I really don't see the economic appeal of a PVR in a game console, assuming it's going to be reliable when you're using it to game while it's trying to record something.
The PSX was overpriced but then it probably reflected the true costs of putting in PVR and DVD recording features in a box and the need to make profit from the price of hardware alone, rather than a subscription for the programming guide.
That's definitely the case with the Direct Tivos, which can be had well-under $100 now with a 1-year programming commitment for new Direct TV subscribers.
The whole PVR space is becoming commoditized. People are willing to settle for PVRs offered by the cable companies for $5/month lease even if the features and interface are basic.
So I really don't see the economic appeal of a PVR in a game console, assuming it's going to be reliable when you're using it to game while it's trying to record something.
The PSX was overpriced but then it probably reflected the true costs of putting in PVR and DVD recording features in a box and the need to make profit from the price of hardware alone, rather than a subscription for the programming guide.
Qroach said:
I know, I was just suggesting in order to lower cost and improve profit as well as target market better, they can do something like that on top of the Hard Disk. You know, like how GPU maker, seperate their chips.
Maybe even better Anti Aliasing for the high end stuff.
That doesn't matter, the game can still be render internally at 60 fps or even higher rate, and blend them to get some temporal AA.
I don't expect it to record while gaming . I would use it at other times. My tivo claims it can record while playing other things but i find the quality suffers as there are alot of jerks in the recordings . I was thinking more along the lines of a second recorder or an entry one sorta like the ps2 was with dvd players
I personally have my doubts that the Xbox2 will have PVR functionality. I do see much more improved WMC Extender support. It seems to me Microsoft wants people to buy the PC for that functionality since the cost of the large capacity drive is included with the PC. No matter how you slice it, large capacity storage COSTS MONEY. Money which Microsoft doesn't want to waste for the next go-round. I suspect Microsoft will subsidize very little, if none at all.
Tommy McClain
Tommy McClain
If MS included the capability to record say 20 hours of HDTV, it would be a category-killer at console prices. Even more so than blue-laser optical discs playing back HDTV movies at console prices.
But there's a reason HDTV PVRs are rare and expensive right now.
How well has WMC sold? Is it a big enough deal that a Media Center extender would be a big selling point? WMC PC prices seem to be well over the average selling prices of most PCs, which is why set-top PVRs seem more likely to have greater penetration.
Yes, I know the WMCs can perform other functions but lets face it, the PVR is likely the most frequently used feature and probably the biggest selling-point.
Thinking about this more, the PC version of Xenon really makes little sense. They would be competing with Dell, HP, etc. and right now, PCs aren't a lucrative market except for Dell. Especially consumer PCs, which doesn't have the volumes which the business market has. And what business is going to buy a Xenon PC over a Dell?
But there's a reason HDTV PVRs are rare and expensive right now.
How well has WMC sold? Is it a big enough deal that a Media Center extender would be a big selling point? WMC PC prices seem to be well over the average selling prices of most PCs, which is why set-top PVRs seem more likely to have greater penetration.
Yes, I know the WMCs can perform other functions but lets face it, the PVR is likely the most frequently used feature and probably the biggest selling-point.
Thinking about this more, the PC version of Xenon really makes little sense. They would be competing with Dell, HP, etc. and right now, PCs aren't a lucrative market except for Dell. Especially consumer PCs, which doesn't have the volumes which the business market has. And what business is going to buy a Xenon PC over a Dell?
I believe MS invited the PC OEMs to manufacture the Xbox and they declined.
Only way that would have worked was for MS to share the licensing and XBL revenues. MS gests 100% of those revenues and is still losing money so I don't think the PC companies will be in a hurry to get into the console HW business, when the money is only in SW.
Only way that would have worked was for MS to share the licensing and XBL revenues. MS gests 100% of those revenues and is still losing money so I don't think the PC companies will be in a hurry to get into the console HW business, when the money is only in SW.
jvd said:
Mmmmm...at least you´re not expecting 12000 rpm HDDs now. You´re expecting a $500 console to be sold at $300 in any case, right? That´s still being incredibly optimistic.
It just seems like you didn´t even read the topic and just posted what you wanted, not what you think it´s likely MS will do according to the topic. Seriously, what would be the point in offering just bigger HDDs in the upper versions? There should be more tangible differences if you´re going to offer different packages.
Also, you have to remember that MS doesn´t want to have the enormous loses they´ve had with Xbox with Xenon, and HDDs are one of the most difficult parts to reduce price troughout the system´s lifetime. IMO, that would be one of the first things MS will cut in their pursuit of a more cost effective console this time around.
Please note two things about TiVo though.
1> They are losing money (I thought) and might go bankrupt soon.
2> They are counting on you subscribing. Therefore the retail prices could be subsidized by their subscription fees.
Therefore you should not compare the price of a TiVo unit to a future console that will be operating under a different price structure.
1> They are losing money (I thought) and might go bankrupt soon.
2> They are counting on you subscribing. Therefore the retail prices could be subsidized by their subscription fees.
Therefore you should not compare the price of a TiVo unit to a future console that will be operating under a different price structure.
I would still like a fast hardrive and i still think its possible.Almasy said:jvd said:
Mmmmm...at least you´re not expecting 12000 rpm HDDs now. You´re expecting a $500 console to be sold at $300 in any case, right? That´s still being incredibly optimistic.
It just seems like you didn´t even read the topic and just posted what you wanted, not what you think it´s likely MS will do according to the topic. Seriously, what would be the point in offering just bigger HDDs in the upper versions? There should be more tangible differences if you´re going to offer different packages.
Also, you have to remember that MS doesn´t want to have the enormous loses they´ve had with Xbox with Xenon, and HDDs are one of the most difficult parts to reduce price troughout the system´s lifetime. IMO, that would be one of the first things MS will cut in their pursuit of a more cost effective console this time around.
As for the cost I remember the ps2 being around 400something cost to sony when launched. I don't see why the ps3 and xenon can't launch at 300 but have a true 500$ price
As for my replys and reading the post , I did . I don't think it would be wise spliting the lowest version of the xenon by not having an hd-dvd drive or by ram amount as the higher end consoles will never have the features used . What would the higher end xenon do with 512 megs of ram when the lowest one they need to program for is 256 megs ? Whats the point of having hd-dvd when the gams wont take advantage of it .. With the hardrive you can offer longer record time . I"m happy with my 40gig hardrive but since my sister has many night classes she can easily fill up her 40 gig drive with her shows that she misses so she bought a 80 gig .
as for the cost ... well its true that would be the hardest part to reduce in price. I don't deny it . But they can also move skus with it
They can start with what i said or even a 40 gig drive as the lowest as that should be 40 hours of ntsc storage .
So 40 gig drive , 80 gig drive 110 or 120 gig drive. Then as life goes on the 40 gig may not drop past certian point but whe nthe 80 gig hits that point get rid of the 40 gig sku and move to a 80 gig 120 gig and i dunno 160 gig . And you can continue that so that when the next gen systems hit 100$ you'd have a 80 gig drive in the 100$ one , in the 200$ a 120 gig and in the 300$ a 200gig .
Personaly i would rather see a hardrive than a thumb drive as the thumb drive is still around 100$ for 1 gig and I don't see it droping to much soon and wont offer any pvr .
jvd said:
Well, then your position is that splitting the market sucks and offering multiple SKUs is a dumb idea. Becuase think about it, why would consumers give a damn about the higher end equipment if all it did for their extra $300 or so was offering them a bigger hard drive?
If you´re going to be offering a higher end machine, then the features should justify it. Maybe not extra ram, but a HD DVD/BluRay drive would definitely be a good extra, along with a HDD for TiVo like functionality (I´m not expecting Xenon to sport a HDD and a HD DVD drive) and perhaps DVD recording as well. Remember, with a higher end unit, you must offer the basic functionality plus exciting extra functionality.
Merely upgrading the HDD capacity will do nothing and will be completely ignored by the consumers.
