Cool!

Funny, I thought of that kind of generator some years ago, except that I don't psoess the technical knowhow and skill to even attempt it.

It was mentioned somewhere in the article that a scientist waved a magnet around the generator to start it up. And that the motor also needed a small jolt of current to get it going. In that case his claims are realistic, as he is putting in a bit of energy. My guess is that the magnets do most of the work, and that small timed jolts of electricity are used to keep it from winding down.

I think this is a realistic claim, although the 40000 units thing sounds a bit far-fetched. It would be incredible if this were word-for-word true! This could go a great distance, just as long as the oil companies stay out of it. o_O

I wonder how they sto pthe motion? A magnet isn,t something you can turn off. Either they shift their position, or stop/adjust the timed jolts (assuming they exist).
 
I can imagine this working, but I wouldn't see it as a motor in usual way. It's likely to work like this: you pump in some energy to get it started and than it spins for a very long time without the need for additional energy, thanks to the magnets. When it starts slowing down, you pump some current into it to give it a kick and so on. I don't see this as anything special, just a very efficient way to keep the thing spinning.

Good idea IMHO, but it's surely neither an energy source nor a perpetuum mobilae.
 
pascal said:
Well, if you put a permanent magnet close to a coin it will atract and hold the coin, right? Then it is doing a work against the gravity force field, spending energy to do so.
It's doing no more work than your dinner table does when it holds up a plate of food against the force of gravity...

cloudscapes said:
Funny, I thought of that kind of generator some years ago, except that I don't psoess the technical knowhow and skill to even attempt it.
As have countless other people before you and they didn't succeed either and you know what? Because It Doesn't Work. You wanna know why, the harsh truth of it all? Go look up perpetual motion on wikipedia...

My guess is that the magnets do most of the work
Except, magnets can't do work, because work = expenditure of energy, and magnets don't store any energy to convert from one form into another. They're not like...capacitors or something like that. If they were, we'd all be fucked because then our speakers or harddrives would stop working once the magnetic charge in them wears out...
 
pascal said:
Well, if you put a permanent magnet close to a coin it will atract and hold the coin, right? Then it is doing a work against the gravity force field, spending energy to do so. Then it is a source of power because power=work/time ;)

Some high school physics for you: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/energy/u5l1e.html

You would be looking at things incorrectly. You have to look at things in terms of mechanical energy.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/energy/U5L1d.html

Magnetic fields are infinite in range, with strength inversely related to the square of the distance. This means that every separated magnetic thing within the universe has a set amount of potential energy between it and another magnetic object. It's very much like a stretched spring with inverted tension.

The amount of energy stored in this spring is finite and at its maximum if they ever stop being pulled apart. This finite amount is the absolute maximum amount of energy you will ever get from a magnetic system.

That 330% figure is essentially claiming that two magnets not an infinite distance away have an infinite amount of mechanical energy that can be drawn on indefinitely. (Infinite distance, by the way, would also mean the field strength would be zero. In other words, such a situation has absolutely no meaning in terms of a magnetic field, it would have no energy when it needed to have the most.)

That is a fraudulent claim by a total fraud. You can calculate the amount of mechanical energy between two magnets. Any system where you get anything more than that as an output means that some extra energy has been expended to pull them back apart, something that can never exceed or even meet 100% efficiency.
 
Guys, stop thinking that much of energy, those magnets have an effect of a very good angle-independent lubricant (angle at which the device is mounted, I mean), nothing more than that.
 
Guden Oden said:
pascal said:
Well, if you put a permanent magnet close to a coin it will atract and hold the coin, right? Then it is doing a work against the gravity force field, spending energy to do so.
It's doing no more work than your dinner table does when it holds up a plate of food against the force of gravity...
Forget the hold and concentrate in the atract. My plate is not capable to MOVE the food as the magnet is capable to MOVE the coin. The keyword is MOVE. The coin is moved from its place in direction of the permanent magnet by the magnetic force.http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/energy/u5l1a.html

In physics, work is defined as a force acting upon an object to cause a displacement.
 
_xxx_ said:
Guys, stop thinking that much of energy, those magnets have an effect of a very good angle-independent lubricant (angle at which the device is mounted, I mean), nothing more than that.

Permanent magnetic bearings have been out for a number of years now, so that's not particularly new.
 
3dilettante said:
Magnetic fields are infinite in range, with strength inversely related to the square of the distance. This means that every separated magnetic thing within the universe has a set amount of potential energy between it and another magnetic object. It's very much like a stretched spring with inverted tension.

The amount of energy stored in this spring is finite and at its maximum if they ever stop being pulled apart. This finite amount is the absolute maximum amount of energy you will ever get from a magnetic system.

That 330% figure is essentially claiming that two magnets not an infinite distance away have an infinite amount of mechanical energy that can be drawn on indefinitely. (Infinite distance, by the way, would also mean the field strength would be zero. In other words, such a situation has absolutely no meaning in terms of a magnetic field, it would have no energy when it needed to have the most.)

That is a fraudulent claim by a total fraud. You can calculate the amount of mechanical energy between two magnets. Any system where you get anything more than that as an output means that some extra energy has been expended to pull them back apart, something that can never exceed or even meet 100% efficiency.
Think about a satelite always falling in the gravitational field.
 
pascal said:
Forget the hold and concentrate in the atract. My plate is not capable to MOVE the food as the magnet is capable to MOVE the coin.
It still doesn't count. I read a webpage once describing this very thing and why it's not work, but of course it's gone off the air now (temporarily or permanently, I'm not sure which). It's something along the lines of zero net difference, ie, magnets on their own aren't motors and don't perform any 'work' in the sense a physicist puts the word in.

DC motors do indeed typically contain permanent magnets, but these motors don't do shit until you run electricity through them. I'm sure people would have loved motors that ran using just permanent magnets as "fuel" but like I said, magnets aren't motors so it CAN'T work... If it could, it would, but it isn't. ;)
 
If you attract a coin with a permanent magnet, then
  • The magnet will attract the coin, reducing the potential energy of the coin and converting the lost potential energy into kinetic energy as the coin falls into the magnetic field.
  • Once the coin has hit the magnet, the magnet can clearly not do any more work on it.
  • If you wish to remove the coin from the magnet again, you will need to expend work on pulling the coin out of the magnet's magnetic field, adding back to the coin the exact same amount of potential energy it lost when it fell into the magnetic field in the first place.
Except that the coin likely lost most of its kinetic energy when hitting the magnet (to heat, noise, movement of the magnet or other useless forms of energy) you will have gained and lost NOTHING.
 
If you are holding the magnet, your arm is exerting a force to resist the attraction of the magnet towards the coin too.
 
Well if they can make one of these small and cheap enough to buy Ill buy one and tear it apart and see if theres anymore to this than he says in the artcile... What if the magnets were in fact fed by the electrical input but in a very efficient way?

Maybe he simply made a very efficient motor but just that could go along way to helping the west improve energy efficiency. 55% of electricity being consumed by motors as the article says...
 
Guden Oden said:
cloudscapes said:
Funny, I thought of that kind of generator some years ago, except that I don't psoess the technical knowhow and skill to even attempt it.
As have countless other people before you and they didn't succeed either and you know what? Because It Doesn't Work. You wanna know why, the harsh truth of it all? Go look up perpetual motion on wikipedia...

Please read the rest of my post. I never said it was perpetual motion. I also stated that maybe he might be spending a bit of current from time to time to keep it from slowing down.

the article said:
The meters showed an input to the stator electromagnets of approximately 1.8 volts and 150mA input, and from the generator, 9.144 volts and 192mA output. 1.8 x 0.15 x 2 = 540mW input and 9.144 x 0.192 = 1.755W out.

2 volts put in, 9 volts brought out. It's not perpetual motion, but I couldn't find any mention of "perpetual" in the article (maybe I missed it). Still, 2v -> 9v is fairly amazing! I'll be keeping an eye on this invention, I'm really interested in knowing the basic theory on how it works.

You also state that magnets can't do work and can't store energy to convert it to another, and also compare them to capacitors. Capacitors, on their own, contain an amount of electricity for a limited duration, untill you charge it back again with equal power (at a slower rate, like camera flashes). Magnets, on their own, contain a relitavely unlimited amount of attraction and repell towards metal and other magnets. Well if you consider the magnet attraction = motion (two magnets being pulled/pushed) and motion can easily be converted into electricity (hydroelectric dams and motors are proof), then in theory it might be feasable. If you position magnets on the shell of the generator and on the rotor perfectly, you can make the rotor spin for a long time (with reasonable torque from the magnetic force) once you give it a kick start. I'm guessing that the north end of a magnet gets attracted by the south on the exterior of the generator, giving it enough energy to pull it under another north end, thus repelling it along the same direction. I think he is also sending minute jolts of "helper" electricity just to give it that extra nudge under the repelling magnet, which may even be positioned at an angle to ease the one-way movement. I think he is kick-starting the rotor with small amounts of electricity, and using timed jolts every now and then to keep it from spinning down. Anyways, I'm repeating myself here, sorry.
 
cloudscapes said:
Please read the rest of my post. I never said it was perpetual motion. I also stated that maybe he might be spending a bit of current from time to time to keep it from slowing down.

There is no maybe about spending current to keep it from slowing down.

Specifically, the energy involved is the wattage = voltage drop x current.
Spending current means spending energy.


No fraud worth his salt these days would ever say "perpetual". The patent office probably has an automated rejection service that only looks for that word.

In a world of friction and entropy, perpetual motion means that a device somehow does not lose any usable energy in its operation. The reason that other not so perpetual motion devices slow down is because of the gradual bleeding of usable energy out of the device.

If something is perpetual, it either has no friction or other potential avenue of loss (such as air drag or vibration), or that it somehow produces enough extra energy to make up for this loss.

So here's the problem:

the article said:
The meters showed an input to the stator electromagnets of approximately 1.8 volts and 150mA input, and from the generator, 9.144 volts and 192mA output. 1.8 x 0.15 x 2 = 540mW input and 9.144 x 0.192 = 1.755W out.

2 volts put in, 9 volts brought out. It's not perpetual motion, but I couldn't find any mention of "perpetual" in the article (maybe I missed it). Still, 2v -> 9v is fairly amazing! I'll be keeping an eye on this invention, I'm really interested in knowing the basic theory on how it works.

If 2 Volts can power this machine, would increasing the voltage result in more output? What if we just route two volts from the output? That would leave 7 "free" Volts!

Let us pray this guy never attaches a full output to the input, because then the input would be multiplied by 4.5 times, resulting in 4.5 times the output, which goes back and multiplies the input by 4.5 times which multiplies the output by...etc.

Watt = unit of energy(Joule)/time = voltage drop across a device from its electrical inputs to outputs x current flow in the circuit

The first problem is that the math in the article doesn't seem consistent.
1.8 x .15 is fine, but where the x 2 comes from isn't mentioned.
(edit: I forgot that the input is pulsed, which changes the instantaneous vs average power input. This is probably an attempt to adjust for this.)
(edit edit: Actually, this makes things worse, we don't know the cycle times involved. A short active cycle can lead to a depressed average current and voltage draw on the instrumentation, which is meant to only measure DC voltages. The actual consumption would be far higher.)

It's worrisome, but not the worst part. The problem here is that we don't know from what standard voltage this guy's meters referencing. His wattage figure mentions the voltage at the input to the stator motor, but not what it is compared to the output. Voltages are relative, and he hasn't said if he was using the output as reference, meaning his voltage reading is suspect.

Here's the magically higher output:

1.755 W = 9.144 V x .192

After one second of operation:
Input energy = .54 Joules (same joules as every other physical equation)
Output energy = 1.755 Joules

This is "free energy" which could if routed back to the machine, make it run forever with no further input.



Magnets, on their own, contain a relitavely unlimited amount of attraction and repell towards metal and other magnets. Well if you consider the magnet attraction = motion (two magnets being pulled/pushed) and motion can easily be converted into electricity (hydroelectric dams and motors are proof), then in theory it might be feasable. If you position magnets on the shell of the generator and on the rotor perfectly, you can make the rotor spin for a long time (with reasonable torque from the magnetic force) once you give it a kick start. I'm guessing that the north end of a magnet gets attracted by the south on the exterior of the generator, giving it enough energy to pull it under another north end, thus repelling it along the same direction. I think he is also sending minute jolts of "helper" electricity just to give it that extra nudge under the repelling magnet, which may even be positioned at an angle to ease the one-way movement. I think he is kick-starting the rotor with small amounts of electricity, and using timed jolts every now and then to keep it from spinning down. Anyways, I'm repeating myself here, sorry.

Magnetic fields do not work the way you are saying they do. Attraction does not equal motion which means it does not equal energy.

Fields do not make energy. They can only transmit energy that is already present in the system, and in any real world case they do it imperfectly.

If a rotor magnet is being attracted to the pole of one of the gasket magnets, what happens when it starts to move away? I would presume it would slow down as the attraction is now in the opposite direction of motion. What if there's another magnet that repels positioned in the right place? Then why doesn't it cancel most of the field from the magent being attracted to?
 
Sorry for the double post:

DANGER! LONG! LOTS OF EDITS!

pascal said:

Here's what I could gather:

He's set up two magnetically levitated rotors, each rotationally stabilized within a circle of 16 permanent magnets. The magnets are oriented so that a ring of repelling magnetic poles faces the set of magnets on the rotors.

The rotational phases of the rotors are kept set in relation to each other by 2 gears.

The first rotor has an electromagnet that is used to kickstart the first rotor. According to the patent, its repulsion to the strategically geared second rotor will get both spinning.

The electromagnet relies on an optical sensor to pulse the current through the magnet so that it only activates when its field is attracted to the second rotor's magnets.

He later claims the rotors can power a motor or serve as a generator.

Analysis:

His background statement has a number of omissions that can be interpreted as perhaps errors in translation, forgetfulness, or understanding of the use of electromechanical motors.

An electromotor is well known as a rotation apparatus utilizing a magnetic force. For example, an AC electromotor comprises a rotor having a coil, a stator surrounding the rotor, and a plurality of electromagnets, disposed on the stator, for generating a rotating magnetic field. An electric power must be constantly supplied to the electromagnets in order to generate the rotating magnetic field and keep the rotor rotating, i.e., an external energy, or electric energy, is indispensable for the rotation of the rotor.

The first paragraph is on the face of it correct, but incomplete. AC electromotors can use a rotor with coil, and a stator with electromagnets to produce a magnetic field. Electric current is necessary for it to function.

However, there are plenty of other motors which do not follow this exact organization. Brush DC motors for example may have a electromagnet armature or coil that rotates within a stator comprised by one or more permanent magnets. During rotation, brushes supply current to the coil in such a way that its field repels that of the stator poles. This causes it to rotate until it approaches the point that it reaches maximum attraction and maximum stability with the stator, which would cause it to stop. Just prior to this, a set of metal contacts that the brushes supply current to the armature reaches a point where the brushes switch which contact they are powering, reversing the polarity, which causes the process to repeat.

There are other methods of doing this, with the basic idea that there are two magnetic fields which are actively kept out of perfect alignment in order to cause rotation.

Under the circumstances, a magnetic rotation apparatus, which employs permanent magnets in lieu of electromagnets and can rotate a rotor only by a magnetic force of the permanent magnets, is highly desirable.

This is incomplete and implies a line of reasoning that is factually incorrect. If the inventor is only concerning himself with motors that use electromagnets in their armature and stator assemblies (a subset of all motors), this is correct in as far as sometimes it is desirable to simplify the motor by using a permanent magnet to supply a reference field for another alternating field.

A rotor spinning only by the force of permanent magnets indicates a failure to understand or a willful misrepresentation of motor functions, and is almost immediately undermined by the rest of the patent.

The key point to remember here is that in a moving system involving magnets, an opposing field permitted to minimize its repulsion will eventually reach a point where it begins to attract. If rotation in one direction brings a permanent magnet's poles to a position that it can begin to attract the field around it, will attempt to reverse direction to stay in the attractive ground state. Motors work by switching the field quickly before this happens.

This can be done, for example, with an electromagnet's changing the direction of its current, or even by a mechanical kludge of quickly flipping a smaller permanent magnet physically within a larger system.

The patent outlines another way, in which an electromagnet simply turns off when it would attract the most, and relies on inertia to carry it to a point where it can repell again, where it temprorarily turns on.


Gears 6a and 6b made of synthetic resin are, as cooperating means, attached to lower surfaces of first and second rotors 4a and 4b. The diameters of gears 6a and 6b are identical but larger than those of rotors 4a and 4b. Gears 6a and 6b mesh with each other. First and second rotors 4a and 4b are thus rotatable in opposite directions in a cooperating manner. In FIG. 1, reference numeral 7 indicates support arms for supporting first and second rotors 4a and 4b.

The rotors are levitated by magnets and are kept oriented by a set of resin gears. This means there is a physical mechanism that keeps the possible magnetic fields in a certain relation to each other. This is also a source of friction.

Of course, there needs to be something to motivate these magnets to repel, which is supplied by an electromagnet around the first rotor.

The circumferential length of reflection plate 16 is equal to that of the above-mentioned first region. When magnets 9a and 9b enter the first region, first sensor 15 is turned on, and when they leave the first region, first sensor 15 is turned off. When drive circuit 14 receives a signal from first sensor 15, it excites electromagnet 9a such that both polarities of electromagnet 9a correspond to those of permanent magnet 9b of second rotor 4b.

An optical sensor will activate the electromagnet when it reaches the point in its rotation that will allow it to repel the magnets on the second rotor. This sensor deactivates the current when the electromagnet reaches the complementary position where it would attract the second rotor instead.

This is exactly what every other motor does, and is the source of all the rotational energy of the device. What the inventor has done is convert the stator into a rotating device through a pair of gears and electronically timed pulses.

In the above embodiment, since electromagnet 9a is excited only in a specific region, a large electric power is not required. In addition, since electromagnet 9a rotates and brakes rotors 4a and 4b, a braking mechanism for a magnetic rotation apparatus can be obtained without having to make the entire structure of the apparatus complex.

Braking rotation involves just reversing the current applied when the optical sensor triggers the magnet. Something also not very new.

The present invention is not restricted to the above embodiment. With the exception of the paired electromagnet and permanent magnet, all permanent magnets of the rotors are arranged such that their end portions of the same polarity face radially outward from the rotors. However, it is possible that the polarities of the radially outward end portions of the permanent magnets are alternately changed. Namely, it should suffice if the polarities of the radially outward end portions of the first rotor are identical to those of the corresponding radially outward end portions of the second rotor. The magnets may have different magnetic forces. Furthermore, an electric power for exciting the electromagnet can be derived from the rotation of the rotors or from the revolving magnetic field of the permanent magnet.

This guy is basically saying it is possible to turn this device into basically any other kind of electric motor by changing where the electromagnets are used.

As described above, the magnetic rotation apparatus of the present invention can be used as a driving source in place of an electric motor, and as an electric generator.

A basic restatement of what an electric motor or generator is. Either a magnetic field is changed by electricity to cause motion, or motion causes a magnetic field to change and cause electricity to flow.

This guy has basically patented a standard electric electric motor, only it is implemented in what is probably a rather overcomplex and wasteful way.


No claims are made towards power consumption rather than vauge promises of efficiency. There are no power numbers, and the inventor is smart enough to not claim his motor can power a generator with over 100% efficiency. The patent does not match his claims and may or may not be the same device described in the later article.

He has completely confused spinning with providing actual power. He seems to be stating that a levitating rotor spinning for a long period of time is the result of active energy expenditure by the magnets, rather than a result of Newton's law of Inertia. Any real power is a direct result of the current pulsing by the electromagnet.

My Evaluation: The device would with a modicum of effort be workable. Where it would be usable is questionable. His use of what amounts to a magnetic bearing as the housing promises to reduce friction, but then he goes and sticks in two physical gears.

He claims to escape the use by AC motors of electromagnets in the stator, while ignoring the fact that a whole class of motors already do this.
His use of a pulsed electromagnet is not new nor uncommon.

The only difference is what looks like a pointless complication where the stator (rotor b) is also a moving part, whereas standard motors avoid adding more motion than is necessary.

The ring of magnets is reduced to nother more than a fancy mounting, and resin gears produce a friction load within the device just for it to function, something I'm sure most motor designers can say with pride they have never done.

Verdict:

It's a DC motor or a generator core, just a dumb one.


Chalk this up to an overworked patent examiner not reading through this one carefully to see it brings absolutely nothing new or useful to the table.

edit: I'm going to have to take back this last sentence for now. While magnetic bearings have been around since at least 1948 and motors with electronic current switches have been around since the late 60s, it is possible that this patent filed in 1988 might have found a unique, if possibly pointless, combination of various technologies.
There have been uses of motors in magnetic bearing assemblies, but I haven't been able to determine when they appeared or whether or not they used an optical or electrical way of coordinating things.

edit edit: Scratch the magnetic bearing part, this thing has the elemements of one, but then winds up using normal bearings anyway. This is just an overcomplicated motor with moving stator(probably not a good idea) and optical control(not new).


The article is still BS. It's also a year old, so where exactly is the revolution?

also:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/motor.htm
 
pascal said:
Ok 3dilettante, you are right. Your first explanation of the energy of magnets is the correct answer :LOL: But what I find funny is why the US patent office is full of patents with this kind of motors :oops:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...amp;co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=ptxt

I haven't scanned through, but there are plenty of opportunities to make working models based on different combinations of technologies. It's just that patents don't really have any bearing on the claims people make afterwards.

Here's the one that looks most recent from that article.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=ptxt&S1=(kohei+AND+minato)&OS=kohei+and+minato&RS=(kohei+AND+minato)

I've skimmed it, but right now I'm too damn tired to wade through this dense collection of redundant text.

Basically, it looks like the inventor figured out since 1988 that there's no point to a second rotor and the pointless gears.

It's now a motor suspended in what looks like a magnetic bearing, with two electromagnets fixed outside. A microswitch now controls the pulses to the electromagnets, though a photodetector could work as well.

I've seen this compared to a reluctance motor, only with permanent magnets propping up the rotor in what may be a magnetic bearing.

Once again, the patent makes no actual numerical claims on efficiency. It makes comment on the sources of inefficiency in modern motors, but it never claims to better them.

This design looks much less stupid than the first one, and it seems based on something somewhat unique, though actual improvements over other designs are out of the scope of a patent.

This motor would work, though the the patent is worded so densely that I just don't have the energy to tease out the facts. I don't know if it is deliberately written to obfusciate the purpose of the parts. A lot of patent language is dense, but this is hugely so.

There is no claim that the motor requires only 20% of the power for equal output for other motors. (Since even a poor motor is 70% efficient, this improvement would mean output would be coming out of nowhere).

This motor looks patentable, but having a patent doesn't mean every claim made afterwards is true.

The miracle speech in the article seems even more disingenuous here. The writer of the patent has a much better grasp of the mechanics, so it looks like there's a much higher likelihood of falsehood and negligence involved.

Considering we haven't heard from this guy after a year makes me think somebody wasn't happy with what he was claiming.
 
This japanese man's motor must not only be extraordinarily heavy since it relies on inertia to make the rotor spin so his electromagnet can pull on it, since the rotor is magnetically suspended he can't extract any major torque out of it either unless it connects in a straight manner directly to the device it's supposed to power... That's pretty limiting! It couldn't really drive something like a blower fan for example as a device like that produces a sideways thrust that would make the rotor become unbalanced, possibly causing vibration or other interference with operation.
 
I don't know about connecting any motor directly to what it is powering. The few motors I've played around with usually had their output sent through a reduction box to get usable torque out of them.

It's probably not a weakness unknown for a number of small motors.

Pulse-driven ones do sometimes have problems with consistently delivering torque, however, since there can be substantial periods of their rotation where they aren't powered at all, and then very brief bursts of power.

I haven't heard of the sideways thrust you are talking about. Motors like this would probably act more like gyroscopes than anything, so unless they're mounted on something that moves, why would there be a sideways thrust?
 
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