CELL will be there in PS3!

[Paul]

We aren't arguing when PS3 is coming out, this topic is about whether cell will be in ps3 or not. Which has been proven correct by a scei press release.

As for when ps3 is coming out? My guess is early 2006/LATE 2005 for japan, and fall 2006 or maybe summer for USA.

 

[jvd]

"well for some reason the second page will not display. But i don't see where they say the chip will debut in 2005 in your offical press release."

You asked where I got

"With this investment, SCEI will manufacture the new microprocessor for the broadband era, code-named “Cellâ€￾, as well as other system LSIs, to be used for the next generation computer entertainment system."

Which I have just given you the link to, it's on the first page, you didn't ask proof that the chip is going to debut 2005.

Cell debuting 2005 is on 90% of all these news articles about the plant.

Next thing I know your going to say that the news articles aren't a good source for this information, well in that case, neither are your news articles about cell not being in ps3. Which I also want to add, has been proven wrong by an official scei press release.

the pdf wont display the second page . can u paste the second page .

I have not seen 90% of the articles state the chip will debut in 2005. I keep hearing 2006 - 2007 . Hell even the article that was posted on the first page says late 2005 most likely 2006 .

 

[Paul]

Second page does not come up either for me, most likely do to the fact that there are foreign characters being used. Not that it matters, because the quote is on the first page.

 

[jvd]

We aren't arguing when PS3 is coming out, this topic is about whether cell will be in ps3 or not. Which has been proven correct by a scei press release.

As for when ps3 is coming out? My guess is early 2006/LATE 2005 for japan, and fall 2006 or maybe summer for USA.

Problem is i still say by the wording that it wont be in it. We still have to wait and see . Anyway I'm out of here. My little cousins b day. So i wont be back till late tonight

 

[jvd]

Second page does not come up either for me, most likely do to the fact that there are foreign characters being used. Not that it matters, because the quote is on the first page.

One quote does not say the whole story . Otherwise the press release would have been that one quote .

 

[Panajev2001a]

Well we have news postings saying they are saying its not in the ps3 and still people say that it is. We have enough info to say its highly probable that the cell wont be in the ps3 too

Debatable...

Also the financial aspect goes against the "PlayStation 3 using totally unrelated to Cell technology" argument and it has to be addressed...

I think there is more news evidence pro Cell in PlayStation 3 ( a PlayStation 3 note in a Cell patent published by Sony is a bit more of a "MAY not" in one article ) than against it, but it is still debatable and that is why we are here in a discussion forum

THe problem with the patent is we have no clue when it was filled. THey may have wanted to use the cell chip in the ps3 but to do costs or technical problems they may no longer be able to use it . As i said we just have to wait on sony's offical news .

We do know when the patents were filed: March 21, 2001... a bit more than a week ( like 9 days ) after the joint-venture between Sony, IBM and Toshiba was made "official" and known to public.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I think Paul pretty much hit it on the head with the point that it's SCEI that's investing and building these fabs... SCEI currently has 2 fabs (FAB1 and FAB2 in Nagasaki), the rest fall under Sony Semiconductor (I'm not sure about the Oita facility that's co-oped with Toshiba, but SCEI was the primary investor in that). The point being that if SCEI is the one investing/building these facilities, then whatever they produce *is* going to be used in whatever "system" that they put out...

I agree with archie and Paul: it is interesting that SCEI is investing in chip manufacturing...

I feel dumb for not having connected this dot earlier

 

[Panajev2001a]

They allso talk about how the cell chip will be used in a broad range of products .

Reasonable... one of the major points of spending Billion of Dollars in designing from basically scratch an architecture like Cell was to make it modular and scalable so it can fit Power consumption and Performance requirements of the broadest range of devices possible without sacrificing ISA compatibility ( the basic ISA is the same in all Cell based devices )...

This is also one of the reasons why Sony as a group has reorganized around SCE: Cell is one of the keys to the evolution of Sony as a whole.

Cell was designed to serve not only the PlayStation line, but also other Sony internal groups and to provide synergy between them.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yes the cell chip will , Most likely the one used for set top boxes i.e the smallest of the cell chips . Not the one needed to drive a graphics system .

To the italicized part ( ): oh come on now... I understand your position of doubt until all proofs are laid on the table, but this is getting a bit extreme do not you think ?

Have you read the Patent ? What do you think the described Visualizer was ( which shares building blocks with the Broadband Engine and should be able to be made by the same plants that make the Broadband Engine with relatively little modification or none at all [the size of the chips should be similar as well]] ) ?

Have you followed the Reyes-like renderer on PlayStation 3 debate ( only to show that a fast rasterizer plus a powerful CPU [with lots of FP power and bandwidth] can generate good graphics: no I am not discussing exact performance and theoretical FLOPS numbers here ) ?

Cell can be used for graphics, it should be a pretty good architecture at that ( useful to make nice processors [Cell is the micro-architecture not a specific implementation] for a 3D graphics oriented chipset )...

 

[chaphack]

Anyone thought about the cooling problems, costs and delays that might take place? AFAIK, powerpc running at 4ghz is no antartica and 65nm is a large bet, considering that other established chip fabs like Intel and TSMC are just moving to 90nm.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Intel JUST moving to 90 nm ???

Chap... in few months they will mass-produce a 100 MTransistors 3+ GHz beast using their 90 nm technology which they have had for a while...

Also the PUs, the RISC cores are not full-blown PPCs... they might be stripped down PPC or MIPS for all we know... I think a slim PPC is more likely though...

 

[Panajev2001a]

Supposely a Q&A session with Sony, IBM and Toshiba...

Anyway heres the Q&A's


Q&A



What is the breakdown of 200 billion yen by fiscal year and by production facility?

Installation of clean room and pilot line in SCE Fab2 (1st floor) will start from this fiscal year. Also together with Toshiba, we plan to initiate installation of fabrication facility within

Toshiba's Oita plant, within the framework of OTSS joint venture. Execution of subsequent investment will be determined by taking optimal timing, place and allocation into

consideration.



Are investments to IBM's and Toshiba's production facilities included in 200 billion yen?

Together with Toshiba, we plan to initiate installation of fabrication facility within Toshiba's Oita plant, within the framework of OTSS joint venture. Execution of subsequent investment

will be determined by taking optimal timing, place and allocation into consideration.



If asked of the possibility of collaboration with IBM

As for the execution of subsequent investments, we will further investigate, taking allocation and place into consideration. (No concrete details are given.)



When does the operation start and what is the wafer processing capacity?

Operation of the pilot line will start within this fiscal year. Wafer processing power is total 1,500 units per month (NOTE: total of OTSS and Fab)



Will you manufacture products other than Cell?

We plan to produce various system LSIs. We cannot comment on details of each LSI.





Does this investment of 200 billion yen cover production of Cells to be used by IBM, Toshiba and Sony (Electronics) as well?

This investment is planned to be used for manufacturing semiconductors used for SCE's business. Sony Group's applications are also considered.



Can the investment applied for further cost cut of PS2?

This investment is for manufacturing next generation system LSIs, including Cell, and LSIs used for PS2 will continue to be manufactured at existing fabrication facilities at Fab1, Fab2

(2nd floor) and OTSS. As we have announced today (in EE+GS 1 chip announcement), by completing the most advanced 90 nanometer embedded DRAM process and initiating mass

production from this fiscal year, we think further cost cut for PS2 will progress further.



When do you plan to launch SCE's next generation computer entertainment system?

We are not able to comment at this point in time. PS2 is in its third year and is still growing in the midst of its harvest years. SCE will continue to promote both PS and PS2 formats.



Do you plan to make any additional investments to this 200 billion yen? If so, how much?

At this point in time, we consider 200 billion yen investment over three years is optimal, however, depending on market development/expansion or changes in economic climate, there

may be a possibility of adjusting the plan.



What is the estimated pay-back period of this 200 billion yen?

Along with the good PS2 business growth, over half of the 300 billion yen scale investment made for PS2 is being recouped. Total recoupment is expected in the FY2004. Similar

scheme will be applied for this 200 billion yen investment.



What is the depreciation method?

In principle, five year fixed installment depreciation.



When does depreciation start? (Within FY2003?)

At this point in time, we are not able to comment on details of production schedule.



What about funding? (Do you intend to issue bond?)

Investment will be executed within Sony Group financing plans.



It is assumed that current production capacities for PS2 in Fab1, Fab2 and OTSS will become excessive. Do you have any concrete plans for the usage of such excessive capacity?

We are currently reinforcing existing facilities, including 90 nanometer process, and various semiconductors such as the new chip integrating EE and GS and semiconductors for network

peripherals will be fabricated. By taking advantage of embedded DRAM process that already has world's highest class productivity and competitiveness in cost, we intend to use the

capacity to effectively produce devices for digital products, such as CMOS image sensor, whose demand is growing up rapidly.



How does this investment of 200 billion yen relate to Sony's semiconductor strategy?

(Sony to reply) We understand that this is an important investment for Sony Group toward the broadband network era. (In the future, it becomes possible to apply the advanced

semiconductor process technologies led by SCE for Sony Group products.)



Do you plan to sell Cell to third party companies?

This investment will be used to meet demands within the Sony Group. There is a possibility of selling Cell chips outside, however, initially, we intend to use them by ourselves (SCE and

Sony Group).



What Sony applications (other than next generation computer entertainment system by SCE) will be equipped with Cell?

We have established a new company BBNC with the aim of strategically fusing game system and electronic products. Future plans will be determined by this company.



Does Sony (and not SCE) plan to make additional investments?

Not determined at this point in time.







Q&A FOR TOSHIBA:



Will Toshiba start to produce Cell for yourself?

Yes. We intend to sell this new microprocessor for the broadband era for various products that connect to the networks.



When do you start producing? (test production, mass production)

(No comment on production timing/quantity.)



Is there any relation between SCE's investment and Toshiba's production of Cell on its own?

The announced investment is for the Sony Group. Toshiba will pusue its own plans.



Is there any relation with Toshiba's already announced 350 billion yen investment for semiconductor business?

350 billion yen is the scale of investment Toshiba is planning. It has no direct connection with Sony Group's investment this time.



Does a portion of your 300 billion yen investment overlap with a portion of SCEI's 200 billion investment?

350 billion yen is the scale of investment Toshiba is planning. It has no direct connection with Sony Group's investment this time. However, basic process technologies have various

aspects in common and there is a possibility of collaboration with Sony Group.



For what products does Toshiba wish to use Cell?

Various applications including home gateway products that require high-speed processing power and mobile devices using low power. (extracted from April 2002 press release)





Q&A FOR IBM:



Will IBM start to produce Cell for yourself?

We will further investigate.



When do you start producing? (test production, mass production)

No comment on production timing/quantity.



Is there any relation between SCE's investment and IBM's production of Cell on its own?

The announced investment is for the Sony Group and it has nothing to do with IBM's own plans.



Does SCEI's 200 billion investment include a portion to be invested to IBM's fabrication facility (East Fishkill plant)?

We would like to investigate the possibility with SCEI.



For what products does IBM wish to use Cell?

XXXX



(Does a portion of IBM's already announced investment overlap with a portion of SCEI's 200 billion investment?)

(We would like to seek for the best way including the possibility of working with SCEI.)

I am just presenting it as a regular news update...

I already know what jvd will pick out of it though

 

[Panajev2001a]

The new facilities are also being developed for the 65 nanometer process, although the company is eyeing a shift to a 45 nanometer process in the future.

Interesting... this again seems to go along with what I was expecting

Also this shows that they still feel pretty confident on their 65 nm process and they have started R&D on 45 nm manufacturing technology

And here is the link:

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/394/394316p1.html?fromint=1

 

[iapetus]

Panajev2001a: Well, looks like a few of the quotes from that Q&A strongly back up the Cell in PS3 theories.

"This investment is for manufacturing next generation system LSIs, including Cell"

A much clearer wording than the PDF announcement, which should clear up any potential confusion.

"What Sony applications (other than next generation computer entertainment system by SCE) will be equipped with Cell?"

The answer to this strongly implies acceptance of the fact that Cell will be in the next gen computer entertainment system as well.

 

[Panajev2001a]

next generation computer entertainment system by SCE

Strange enough they call PlayStation 1 and PlayStation 2 Computer Entertainment systems.

Even weirder is that they are both made by SCE

All these things seem to go together somehow...

 

[iapetus]

Hmm. Just read the 'supposedly' bit in the Q&A description. What's the source for this one? You've got to be wary of anything without a reliable history these days...

 

[Panajev2001a]

I will look more into it... thefit on GA posted it...

It seems a bit long and too many details can be cross-checked with other Press Releases or other valid sources...

I doubt it is a fake... however I will check if I can find more sources...

 

[iapetus]

Panajev2001a: "It seems a bit long and too many details can be cross-checked with other Press Releases or other valid sources..."

Hey, if I'm planning a fake then the first thing I'll do is make sure I fill it with detail that's verifiable from other sources.

 

[chaphack]

But next generation could mean PS4, 5 and 6.

You recall one topic here, when i quoted Kutaragi words about movie quality realtime crap prior to PS2? Well, Vince retorded that Kutaragi didnt specifically said PS2, but just a goal he wants to achieve, more geared towards PS3?

HERE DA TOPIC!
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5371&start=20

See! I told you Sony had it all planned, Plan A and Plan B!

 

[Paul]

"But next generation could mean PS4, 5 and 6."

More shit that ive been seeing Xbox fanboys hold onto after news of the official statement of SCEI today.