Carmack console stuff begins leaking from Quakecon

[Rangers]

The new game is called "Rage" and will ship on 2 DVD's for 360 apparantly (one Blu Ray). Also be at 60 FPS, which is not a design decisions I particularly support but anyway..

http://www.shacknews.com/docs/press/20070803_quakecon_carmack.x

5:24: "None of my core opinions have really changed about [the PS3]," and 360 and PS3 are more similar than any two gaming platforms ever, "but if you have a problem moving [a game] over, it's probably going to be because of the PS3." However id has hired one of the best PS3 programmers do ensure that all of id's stuff is top-notch on PS3--PS3 engine will be just as good or potentially better in some ways, but it will have required much more effort than the other platforms. Quake Wars (which uses id Tech 4) on PS3 lagging way behind. Would like to just release 360 game first, but Sony wouldn't really get behind that. However, id Tech 5 will be ready for all platforms. "One of the things that will be really unfortunate" about multiplatform and 60fps target is less upward mobility. Most id titles have been targeted for 30fps on most systems, with expectation that higher-end machines will do more. "Obviously, it's worked well for us over the years." However with multiplatform focus, it changes things because intending to run at 60fps on Xbox 360 and PS3, "which are essentially previous generation PC hardware."

Hmmm, this is kind of fascinating to me:

5:05: Carmack wants to get oscilliscopes out and measure where every single tiny bit of latency is coming from, everywhere from network code to mouse inputs and everywhere in between. Will be easy to do on Mac because he can work with them and they own all the hardware on the computer. Though Macs probably won't start winning game benchmarks, he does feel that Macs could be ideal for incredibly responsive gaming, due to Apple's 100% handling of all hardware in the machine. People haven't analyzed latency in an incredibly scientific way to really optimize as completely as possible, so he wants to do that. "We can work on making it the absolute most responsive experience possible." Thinks industry should look at that in general.

 

[Rockster]

More info here: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3161740

New game is currently being called Rage and Quake 3 Arena coming to XBLA.

 

[Rangers]

Everybody should know that we're going to be good at interiors, but we wanted to make a game that offered more. Maybe we should do something that's a little brighter. Maybe stretch out a little bit. What we wound up with is this post-apocalyptic Road Warrior-type game. It's still about 50% run and gun, it's got adventure elements, a lot of driving elements as well."

From the 1up link. This sounds great. Something different from ID.

 

[morlock]

Trailer of RAGE. http://kotaku.com/gaming/clips/rage-285996.php

Looks like Mad Max or Road Warrior.

 

[Cyan]

I'm pretty sure you deliberately left out some very interesting stuff (thx for sharing). Here are some more quotes from the link you provided:

6:59: Question about Carmack's involvement in OpenGL. Carmack believes one of his big successes in the industry was getting Apple to adopt OpenGL and keeping it relevant to hardware vendors. However, he believes that DirectX 9 is actually currently a better platform than OpenGL. id still uses OpenGL on PC, "partly due to inertia" and partly due to Mac development.

6:56: Vista and DirectX 10. There is no DX10-only feature driving Rage, due to multiplatform development. "But the honest truth is that there's nothing [in DX10] that I'm dying to get my hands on." Carmack believes we're not even close to maxing out DX9.

6:51: Multicore architecture is inevitable but not desirable. "There are no benefits" to multicore architecture; much better to have a theoretical incredibly powerful single processor. However, that is not practical unfortunately. With 8 processors or less, you will do course grain parallelization and assign different processors to different tasks--but beyond that number, you have to start looking at it more like one big sea of processors, which requires a totally different attitude to programming. Introduces difficulties for game development. However, game development will "rocket past" more traditional research into parallel processing.

6:44: We are "within small integral values of all that matters" when it comes to graphical presentation issues. Talking about doing things like true genuine motion blur sampled at 4x 60fps, rather than current fake motion blur. He did some tests himself, but found that it may not be all that perceptible. 30fps to 60fps is a big difference, but 60fps to 120fps isn't really. "It's amazing how many pixels we're rendering even at 720p that really don't matter."

6:34: Agnostic on HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray, not a big videophile. Using Blu-ray because it's in PS3--he thinks Blu-ray still costs more than two DVDs, but he's not sure. Probably not going to do an HD-DVD distribution for Rage because it's just an extra cost when already doing Blu-ray. Theoretically if it turns out not to be any more expensive to do a PC HD-DVD distribution, they might do it, but otherwise they'll just do Blu-ray and DVD.

6:32: Rage will have co-op.

6:31: Question about Havok and its potential to complicate open sourcing engines down the road. Carmack says Raven licensed Havok for Quake 4 rather than use internal physics engine. He didn't think that was a good idea and still doesn't. They won't be doing that with id Tech 5.

6:26: Early on looked like Steam was "just another middleman," but there are definite positives to digital distribution. Believes next generation of consoles may not have optical media. id was looking into its own distribution channels but decided it wants to stay a development company and not a publisher. Back when Wolfenstein and Doom were coming out, Carmack notes they decided not to go the publisher route even though it would have been available at the time.

6:16: Question about why Carmack's PS3 complaint is about texture memory whereas questioner thought difficulty with system was processor architecture. Carmack says that currently, texture memory is the company's biggest problem. Carmack has said Microsoft's triple-core processor is a better decision than PS3's Cure architecture--and while some people probably like the Core architecture, it's still Carmack's opinion that the symmetric Xbox 360 architecture is a "much, much better design."

6:06: "Eventually, id Tech 5 is going to be open-source also." "The policy is that we're not going to integrate stuff that makes it impossible for us to do an open-source release." All id engines eventually become open source. It's more of a personal principle than a business decision. "As a personal conviction, it's still pretty important to me, and I'm standing by that."

5:10: Talking about game in development prior to Rage, and about 30fps versus 60fps. id has made decision to target 60fps with its engine and games. Thus, licensees can shoot for 30fps if they like, and do more visual stuff, or stick with the 60fps goal. "At 30fps with modern graphics hardware, you feel you can do almost anything." "But at 60 hertz...you're left with a lot less decision freedoms, and it's kind of nice." Easier to just say "No you can't do that with 60 hertz."

Totally genius. I agree with him. GT5 and Forza 2 have amazing graphics, imo, since they're locked at 60 fps. 30 fps are ok for me in Arcade racers but sim racers should always run at 60 fps.

I omitted some very interesting notes taken during the conference.

Cheers

 

[Cyan]

From the 1up link. This sounds great. Something different from ID.

Looks like a strong franchise with a bright future, especially the engine since Hollenshead said the new Tech 5 engine would make it easier for developers to design games that are better looking and can be easily modified to run on different systems -- "a process that normally takes months and pushes up costs". "It allows a single studio team to make four versions of our game without outside help," "You can have massive outdoor environments and make them look glorious down to pixel level without any performance issues." (quoting Hollenshead here)

 

[iceberg187]

Carmack > *

 

[Carl B]

6:34: Agnostic on HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray, not a big videophile. Using Blu-ray because it's in PS3--he thinks Blu-ray still costs more than two DVDs, but he's not sure. Probably not going to do an HD-DVD distribution for Rage because it's just an extra cost when already doing Blu-ray. Theoretically if it turns out not to be any more expensive to do a PC HD-DVD distribution, they might do it, but otherwise they'll just do Blu-ray and DVD.

HD DVD distribution... what? Why even give reasons for not doing that, it seems so absurd to begin with.

 

[quest55720]

HD DVD distribution... what? Why even give reasons for not doing that, it seems so absurd to begin with.

I would assume he is talking about the PC version. There are some hd-dvd roms out in the wild. I guess he is just giving an answer to those who own those drives.

 

[digitalwanderer]

Good stuff, thanks for the info. I look forward to this one a bit more now.

 

[Rangers]

I would assume he is talking about the PC version. There are some hd-dvd roms out in the wild. I guess he is just giving an answer to those who own those drives.

It doesn't make any sense as there are almost zero HDDVD (or Blu Ray) drives in PC's in the wild.

And PC games have just recently got around to shipping on DVD's instead of CD's. So the idea they would support HDDVD is ridiculous.

 

[inefficient]

I would be cool if you could pop the Bluray version of the game into your PC and play it there too! All the content assets would be the same. Id would just have to provide the game binaries as a separate < 10MB download. Sort of like how they did it with Quake3 linux.

 

[betan]

I'm pretty sure you deliberately left out some very interesting stuff (thx for sharing). Here are some more quotes from the link you provided:

Well I find most of the summary poorly done and inaccurate, obvious or already well known typical Carmack views.

Vista and DirectX 10. There is no DX10-only feature driving Rage, due to multiplatform development. "But the honest truth is that there's nothing [in DX10] that I'm dying to get my hands on." Carmack believes we're not even close to maxing out DX9.

Well, after seeing Crysis on DX10 vs DX9 he may change his mind .

Multicore architecture is inevitable but not desirable. "There are no benefits" to multicore architecture;

How can it be inevitable and without benefits at the same time? Nobody is that stupid.
Lost in note taking assume.

much better to have a theoretical incredibly powerful single processor.

Apples and oranges. Everybody would prefer incredibly powerful single core processor. There is a reason we don't have it.

Agnostic on HD-DVD vs. Blu-ray

The question should have been DVD vs Blu-ray in console space.

Probably not going to do an HD-DVD distribution for Rage because it's just an extra cost when already doing Blu-ray.

How are PS3 Blu-ray and PC HD-DVD related cost-wise? Is he planning PC Blu-Ray?

Believes next generation of consoles may not have optical media.

I believe they may have optical media.

Carmack has said Microsoft's triple-core processor is a better decision than PS3's Cure architecture--and while some people probably like the Core architecture, it's still Carmack's opinion that the symmetric Xbox 360 architecture is a "much, much better design."

Cure/Core thing would be another example of lost in note taking.

Eventually, id Tech 5 is going to be open-source also." "The policy is that we're not going to integrate stuff that makes it impossible for us to do an open-source release." All id engines eventually become open source. It's more of a personal principle than a business decision. "As a personal conviction, it's still pretty important to me, and I'm standing by that."

That is good to know and the main reason I like id.

Totally genius. I agree with him. GT5 and Forza 2 have amazing graphics, imo, since they're locked at 60 fps. 30 fps are ok for me in Arcade racers but sim racers should always run at 60 fps.

I am confused. Are you are saying he is a genius because they decided to do 60 fps on a non-sim game, which you are ok with 30 fps at least for the driving/racing parts?

I would be cool if you could pop the Bluray version of the game into your PC and play it there too! All the content assets would be the same. Id would just have to provide the game binaries as a separate < 10MB download. Sort of like how they did it with Quake3 linux.

I would expect Blu-ray game filesystem to be well encrypted tied with copy protection, possibly transparent to the developer.

 

[Rangers]

Well, after seeing Crysis on DX10 vs DX9 he may change his mind .

Or, he may not :smile:

How can it be inevitable and without benefits at the same time? Nobody is that stupid.
Lost in note taking assume.

He means without benefit over a similarly powerful single core. How was that not obvious from the context? Or do you seriously think he's saying he'd rather have one core instead of 3 or 8 of similar power? Reading comprehension ftw.

Apples and oranges. Everybody would prefer incredibly powerful single core processor. There is a reason we don't have it.

Duh. Has nothing to do with what he said..

 

[Rangers]

I have to say, I think the Rage trailer looks pretty good. Maybe not Killzone 2 level but pretty darn awesome. And at 60 FPS, even more impressive. The offroad cart racing looks easily on par with motorstorm imo.

 

[betan]

He means without benefit over a similarly powerful single core. How was that not obvious from the context?

How the hell was it not obvious he meant no benefit of multi core over twice powered single core?

Or do you seriously think he's saying he'd rather have one core instead of 3 or 8 of similar power? Reading comprehension ftw.

Read however you want. I was pointing out the lack of soundness of what was written.

Duh. Has nothing to do with what he said..

You cannot be serious here. I just repeated what he reportedly said, only generalizing the subject. Reading comprehension ftw indeed.

Seriously, I said lost in note taking for a reason.
He probably wanted to or even successfully did emphasize difficulty of multiprogramming. Whatever the case is, comparing equivalently powered multi core and single core is of little value as
(1) there aren't any equivalent high end single core (single hardware threaded) and multi core processors.
(2) the advantage of multi core is getting more power.
(3) neither developers nor hardware designers will go back on the single core ship after listening Carmack.

What he should have said (again maybe he did) is it is hard to develop, or some other obvious stuff like two cores are not twice as powerful as one of its core because of synchronization, on chip latency etc.

 

[Rainbow Man]

I find it curious hearing id talking about HDDVD distribution when as late as 2004 with Doom3 they refused to ship on DVD because alledgedly there weren't enough DVD-equipped systems around (a claim I take odds to).

Compare the situation in 04 with DVD (fairly common without a doubt) with today and HDDVD (roughly 15 units in the wild)..

Also I wish Carmack would just stop complaining about multicore. It's here, it's not going to go away. Time to quit bitching.
Peace.

 

[Arun]

5:05: Carmack wants to get oscilliscopes out and measure where every single tiny bit of latency is coming from, everywhere from network code to mouse inputs and everywhere in between. Will be easy to do on Mac because he can work with them and they own all the hardware on the computer. Though Macs probably won't start winning game benchmarks, he does feel that Macs could be ideal for incredibly responsive gaming, due to Apple's 100% handling of all hardware in the machine. People haven't analyzed latency in an incredibly scientific way to really optimize as completely as possible, so he wants to do that. "We can work on making it the absolute most responsive experience possible." Thinks industry should look at that in general.

It's official. Carmack is my new hero and god. Okay, maybe not - but it's been a long time since I heard something I could really respect bigtime from the guy, and that really warranted significant attention. This, however, fits in that category. I wish more developers and players thought the same way about latency.

 

[iceberg187]

http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200708/N07.0803.1731.12214.htm

Game Informer: When we interviewed you at CES this year, and QuakeCon two years ago you weren’t too thrilled with developing for multicore systems. Obviously now, that’s the case across all platforms. Were you kind of at the point with id Tech 5 where, you said, “We give in?â€￾

John Carmack: You have to take advantage of what’s on the table. Although it’s interesting that almost all of the PS3 launch titles hardly used any Cells at all. We hired one of the best PS3 guys around who did the Edge Acceleration technology for Sony – he’s on our team now so we’ve got some of the best PS3 experience here. In fact when we were doing all of the tech demos, we’d bring in the developers and they’d walk over and say, “it’s running on the PS3!â€￾ (laughs) They’d sit there and stare at it for a while.

There’s no doubt that with all of the platforms that we have running here PS3 is the most challenging to develop on. That’s what I’ve been saying from the beginning. It’s not that it was a boneheaded decision because they’re a lot closer the fact that they can run like this [points to the 4 different gaming stations running Rage] – they’re a lot closer than they’ve ever been before. It’s a hell of a lot better than PS2 versus Xbox. But given the choice, we’d rather develop on the Xbox 360. The PS3 still does have in theory more power that could be extracted but it’s not smart. We don’t feel it’s smart to head down that rat hole. In fact, the biggest thing we worry about right now is memory. Microsoft extracts 32 megs for their system stuff and Sony takes 96. That’s a big deal because the PS3 is already partitioned memory where the 360 is 512 megs of unified and on the PS3 is 256 of video, 256 of memory minus 96 for their system…stuff. Stuff is not the first thing that came to my mind there. (laughs)

The PS3 is not the favorite platform but it’s going to run the game just as good. To some degree there’s going to be some lowest common denominator effect because we’re going to be testing these every day on all of the platforms, and it’s going to be “Dammit it’s out of memory on the PS3 again, go crunch some things downâ€￾ That’s probably going to be the sore spot for all of this but because we’re continuous builds on all of these we’re going to be fighting these battles as we go rather than build these things out and go, “Oh my God we’re so far away from running on there.â€￾ Which is the situation where Enemy Territory is suffering with at a degree right now, and a lot of other people have that.

 

[Rainbow Man]

From the way I see it, "rage" seems to be in the previous monosyllabic Doom/Quake genre.short, to the point sort of.

Unfortunately I feel it's a dumb and boring and unimaginative and uninspired name.

I sure as hell hope it's not the final title.
Peace.