Can U.S. schools survive liberalism?

[pax]

Im pretty much done Legion. Ive given numerous examples of history where violence especially prolonged violence did lead to more violence. Is that a general rule? Of course not. But its often the case. I think the one ex on jewish emigration to Israel was good. Yes jews did suffer anti semitism for long periods but it had been waning in the generation or 2 before nazism.

Of course no american blacks rememebr slavery. But do they remember racism? Millions have attested to that already... is there no racism today left? Of course there is it wasnt abolished 40 years ago just made to look antiquated and evil and that greatly helped to remove most of it from everyday life...

My point is that the level of oppression that blacks endured cant be refuted out of hand as a cause for social ills in their community. As time goes on and racism continues to wane that arguement will, hopefully, weaken and if the violence doesnt wane we'll need to scrutinize even harder the persistance of it. But at this time its way to early to say the influence from that past is done and over with.

Asking me to show you how racism influences poeple is like asking me to show you how any form of abuse can sometimes lead to bad behavior by the victims. Kids raped in childhood is a common occurence in rapists... Poeple who've lived under violence tend to accept it as a means of dealing out solutions.

Saw a docu tonight on Jewish terrorism in pre 48 Israel. It was so bad the British docu said it was the only time the brits actually evacuated a country in virtual retreat. Was on History channel in Canada...

The anti semitism the jews suffered resulted in genocide and different behavior than the racism and slavery of the blacks. Its understandable that itd be diffferent. But I certainly dont ascribe all Israeli violence as mere self defence... Pre 48 or after...

The example of a film thats shows turks as evil isnt irrelevant. And I already told you armenian activism isnt only peaceful. Even 80 odd years later...

40 years after centuries of oppression is invalid? Insane...

Some blacks werent rasied in ghettos. Some had access to a better family life than others... lots of factors come in here... But racism and slavery kept so many backs in poverty which by itself is such a cause of social ills how hard is that to understand? It can take generations for a poor family to work itself out of poverty. You expect overnite results in typical american fashion. Cant get that Big Mac made fast enough at the drive thru...

Name me one african american alive that knows what it feels like to be in american slavery.

Where do you get this??? You keep extending the argument over things not said... what did I say? I said slavery AND racism. Racism is fresh in the mind of millions of blacks. And still experienced at least by thousands... However subtle or mispercieved... its still with us... and what remains has a root and dimension far more vast than you can seem to understand...

The historical examples clearly show that groups of people can suffer the consequences of oppression far longer than the mere 40 year max where most of the racism against blacks began to seriously wane.

Why the childish throwouts like egypt in 3000 bc? None of my examples are that long termed... I already said its likely the arguemtn of racism as a viable cause for social ills in the balck community need only a few more generations to work themselves out. Other cuases I find are persistant poverty in the black community. Which unless addressed by better access and infrastructure will likely replace racism as a primary cause.

Its not about excusing bad behavior... Its about analysing a problem and coming up with solutions. Which at least Moore tried to do. All you seem to throw out is summary judgments...

Do we need to revisit the cartoon and the other disputed facts we largely agree on??? Enough regurgitation already...

What statistics??? The context of your generalizing is not the fact that alot of violence is whithin the balck community its the CAUSES!

Ive rarely argued with someone so thick as yourself. You laugh at macro history as if it was irrelevant. So im gonna summarise as to what should be done. I think blacks need more infrastructure.

I dont know what your solution is but your massive and half nonsensical posts also full of regugitation of links we all know well enough by now it would seem youd condemn the black community en masse. Youd make the ghetto even more closed off from american society instead of trying to assimilate them as the other groups who were welcomed into the US.

OMG what absolutely flawed reasoning. Moore suggests fear, you suggest racism but i have to prove that neither of these are the ultimate cause. How one dimensional your view of humanity is Pax. Examine court hearings and trials, culture, etc you will see many of the motives have to do with relationships and profit

Typical dense retort to something I never said. Its you who generalized a cause for black violence not I...

And that failure of healthy thinking on your part puts the onus on you to address that. I dont need to argue in favor of what I consider only one of many causes for black violence.

My hypothesis is he is full of shit

Your hypotheses is that balcks are completely to blame for any and all violence that comes out of their community. This is a fundamental generalisation thats shows your both incapable of good reasoning and analysis.

No one stated racism doesn't affect some one some where. I have stated there isn't any evidence linking racism to violence within the african american communities

Typical of your thinking again... dont you see the contradiction here?... if the massive black experience in american isnt an example of racism that leads to violence I dont know what is... Do you honeslty think that centuries of racism can be wiped in a few days ? Months? What time frames do you allow in your reasoning? Do you realize how easy it is for someone to pass judegemtn when he hasnt lived even a fraction the pain and suffering someone one else has?

You'd goto a woman whose been raped all her life and say she had no right to beat her dirty uncle cuz it was years since she had last suffered a rape...

It is ridiculous because i call for them to stand up and stop bitching just like they did in the 60's. No one is going to do it for them.

And again Im not asking you to stand up for them. Just give them the same access and infrastructure the average american family has had for the last couple generations. Do it for a couple generations. This aisnt about a fucing welfare check its about access to life outside the ghetto. Give them that and job opportunities and see what happens. Some blacks got opportunites and tok em and many are better today. Not all balcks got that access tho. And some need more to account for the lack of it in the past. But with even middle class families having a hard time today getting their kids into college I can only imagine what it is for blacks from the ghetto to get in...

 

[Legion]

Im pretty much done Legion. Ive given numerous examples of history where violence especially prolonged violence did lead to more violence. Is that a general rule? Of course not. But its often the case.

Pax this is really going no where. There is no reason for either of us to continue debating this.

But how does that apply here so many years after the majority of the racism has already ended? I think the evidence speaks for itself. The violence is unrelated.

I think the one ex on jewish emigration to Israel was good. Yes jews did suffer anti semitism for long periods but it had been waning in the generation or 2 before nazism.

But there was no violence because of it, A matter of a difference in value structures.

Of course no american blacks rememebr slavery. But do they remember racism?

I know racism to pax. But i am not killing people.

Millions have attested to that already...

Does that mean they are telling the truth? Millions pax? You must have started counting their claims early.

is there no racism today left? Of course there is it wasnt abolished 40 years ago just made to look antiquated and evil and that greatly helped to remove most of it from everyday life...

And the jews face it everyday as well but they aren't killing each other or assaulting people.

My point is that the level of oppression that blacks endured cant be refuted out of hand as a cause for social ills in their community.

That is true. But likewise you can't argue its the soul cause or even a major contributor. Much of the evidence is against as the violence has been a rather recent incline.

As time goes on and racism continues to wane that arguement will, hopefully, weaken and if the violence doesnt wane we'll need to scrutinize even harder the persistance of it.

They are human beings pax. They can think on their own. Their behavior is inexcussable. They deserve no pitty for committing violent acts. Racism has nothing to do with the majority of crimes committed by african americans. Check out police and court records for statements.

Asking me to show you how racism influences poeple is like asking me to show you how any form of abuse can sometimes lead to bad behavior by the victims. Kids raped in childhood is a common occurence in rapists... Poeple who've lived under violence tend to accept it as a means of dealing out solutions.

This is inpart true. But its not an excuse. A much better comparison would if person A was exposed to violence as a child who's great grand child claims his violent behavior is caused by person A's exposure to violence.

Again the violence within african american communities have been a rather recent dramatic incline. Being so far removed from established racism the new african american culture would have to strain to use that as an excuse for their behaviors.

Pax how can you be sure that any of what you are seeing has to do with racism? How do you know they aren't violent because of the violence they were exposed to in africa?

The anti semitism the jews suffered resulted in genocide and different behavior than the racism and slavery of the blacks. Its understandable that itd be diffferent.

Pax stop trying to rectify the error in your logic by playing semantic games. Violence is violence and if violence begets violence the jewish community as a whole should be one of the most violent cultures. But they are not. Why? Difference in value structures.

But I certainly dont ascribe all Israeli violence as mere self defence... Pre 48 or after...

I certainly don't describe it as an example of violence within the jewish communit as a whole.

The example of a film thats shows turks as evil isnt irrelevant. And I already told you armenian activism isnt only peaceful. Even 80 odd years later...

Yes you did show me that and i refuted it.

Pax you don't seem to grasp a number of things. Their choice to committ acts of violence is their own. No one forced them to do it now 80s years later. Committing acts of violence for the sake of vengence is not acceptable. Yet you seem to try and exuse this by using the logic that resembles "eye for an eye." You take the stance so many emotional leftists do and its a shame. No matter how you look at it the oppressed have no right to do to their attackers that their attackers have done to them. Likewise the attacker has no right to do what it has done to them. There are a multitude of reasons for violence and past racism against blacks just isn't major player in it. People are exposed to violence every day of their lifes in some manner or fashion. Yet many of these people choose not to act on things violently. Why? A code of ethics which prevents them from doing so.

For as many examples you give me of people turning to violence i can give you an example of people moving away from violence. These things happen everyday.

Pax your reasoning constantly confuses me. You are trying to lessen the sense of responsibility for violence by providing past griefs as the attackers motives. A purely emotional, unreasonable, untenable conclusion. This gives the attacker no valid reason to do what he has done to some one who was as innocent as he was. In essence he lives as the perteptual hypocrit who proves he lives by a double standard with every person he hurts. We as human beings how a choice of how to act and one's past shouldn't be used to provide a reason for violence without a cause. If we kept looking father and father into the past for excuses for the madness we will find many violent people were exposed to violence in the past. Ergo creating a kind of infinite regression ridding all of humanity of any form of responsibility rendering all acts of violence tolerable.

For you this clearly is an outlet for your emotions. You choose to feel sorrowful for these african americans who choose not to contribute to society which i find quite odd. They hurt eachother the way you seem to claim they as a collective overmind ( ) have been hurt. Does this not make them even more shameful in your eyes? The civil rights movement provided them with so much to work with yet they have chosen violence at much larger rates then ever before. We can not tolerate this for any reason what so ever Pax.

You have suggested we should tolerate their behavior for now and hopefully sometime in the future they will grow away from violence. This is irresponsible.

Pax you haven't provided a single reason why or how african american violence of the late 20th century is motivated by racism or even majorly influenced by it.

40 years after centuries of oppression is invalid? Insane...

Still no reason why we should tolerate such before or feel guilty for it. As a white person myself i have had nothing to do with slavery or racism against blacks. So no i do not feel responsible for mending their social ills they themselve propogate Pax. No matter how you try to convince me with your pathos arguments.

Some blacks werent rasied in ghettos.

Some were. A lot of them have progressed. Why?

Some had access to a better family life than others...

A lot didn't but they chose to break the chains and succeed. Why?

lots of factors come in here... But racism and slavery kept so many backs in poverty which by itself is such a cause of social ills how hard is that to understand?

Because slavery ended 150 years ago and many african americans succeed today by their willingness. Demonstratable proof they are the cause of their own problems.

Pax please explain to me why the african americans lack the ability to achieve! I really don't understand your reasoning. Again many people live in poverty. Many of them succeed. Racism has kept them down or perhaps class warfare or whatever other invisible antagonist your want to generate. Yet they succeed. Why? A lot of people from africa and india are coming from many times worse situations but they are succeeding with college grants etc. WHy? Because they worked for it.

Where do you get this??? You keep extending the argument over things not said... what did I say? I said slavery AND racism.

WHy not just say racism because slavery has nothing to do with it.

Racism is fresh in the mind of millions of blacks.

Its fresh in the minds of millions of people around the world including jewish and white americans. So what? They move on with their lives.

And still experienced at least by thousands...

Many millions minus thousands have no reason to behave the way they are by your logic.

Pax you are arguing over whether or not they are concerned with racism as the cause of their personal failures. Please stop being so ridiculous. Many people have personal fears and make their way through their lives. These people need to stop whining.

However subtle or mispercieved... its still with us...

and it always will be therefore always will be an excuse for why people don't succeed.

and what remains has a root and dimension far more vast than you can seem to understand...

That would be because of the lack of evidence within african american culture of what you are claiming. Suffering in general has vast influences on society. However, people need to move on with their lives. I am sorry. Pittying them won't make them acheive and has been the major problem of welfare statism from its start.

The historical examples clearly show that groups of people can suffer the consequences of oppression far longer than the mere 40 year max where most of the racism against blacks began to seriously wane.

Let me get this straight. Are you or aren't you saying they are responsible for you actions. Lets cut through the bs here Pax. You can propose your emotional gunk all you want. Get to the nitty gritty. Are they responsible or aren't they.

Why the childish throwouts like egypt in 3000 bc?

Pax it is exactly inline with what you have been saying. Since there is no logical reason to assume a an age of atonement will be reached we can go as far into the past as we want to justify our behavior.

Which leads me to my next question pax

How long should a group of people require before they can no longer use oppression as an excuse? Just curious .

Its not about excusing bad behavior... Its about analysing a problem and coming up with solutions. Which at least Moore tried to do. All you seem to throw out is summary judgments...

Oh? No one has stated racism hasn't played a part in shaping certain people's opinions. You are arguing that racism plays a major part which you have never provided evidence for. You keep throwing out historical bs comparisons but you haven't proven african americans violent behaviors are caused by past racism. You have only suggested it and provided reasons why you think it is possible.

Do we need to revisit the cartoon and the other disputed facts we largely agree on??? Enough regurgitation already...

Of course ignore the fact moore clearly isn't objective.

-btw i am still wanting to know how Moore shows the flaws in the political right.

What statistics??? The context of your generalizing is not the fact that alot of violence is whithin the balck community its the CAUSES!

oh jesus pax. Those documents report the criminals motives for violence. That would be addressing the cause.

Ive rarely argued with someone so thick as yourself. You laugh at macro history as if it was irrelevant. So im gonna summarise as to what should be done. I think blacks need more infrastructure.

You are probable just used to debating with people as dependant on emotion as yourself.

I dont know what your solution is but your massive and half nonsensical posts also full of regugitation of links we all know well enough by now it would seem youd condemn the black community en masse.

And your solution was.....?

I haven't truly provided a solution. I was never asked to. I am not required to. I was pointing out some of the ridiculous claims Moore has made and why they are so ridiculous.

I have attacked the idea that violence is excusable if you have suffered under violence. As responsible people we just can't promote such twisted ideology.

You'd make the ghetto even more closed off from american society instead of trying to assimilate them as the other groups who were welcomed into the US.

This must come from your realization that i have worked for charities within ghettos for years helping the communities there. I'd hate to think you are pulling this out of your ass Pax.

Typical dense retort to something I never said. Its you who generalized a cause for black violence not I...

No i just provided court evidence of the perpetrators motives.

So no i am not generalizing.

I have a question Pax. Are all the people you consider open minded as illogical as yourself?

And that failure of healthy thinking on your part puts the onus on you to address that.

Is healthy thinking a lot like double think from 1984? You know, when a person holds two contradictory ideas in their head to be equally true?

I dont need to argue in favor of what I consider only one of many causes for black violence.

Then why ARE you?

Your hypotheses is that balcks are completely to blame for any and all violence that comes out of their community.

No i believe the individuals who committ acts of violence within their communites are to blame Pax.

You seem to believe that the white people who live today are to blame for what happend 150 years ago as well as guilty of acts of racism they never committed.

This is a fundamental generalisation thats shows your both incapable of good reasoning and analysis.

and yet you put forth conjecture that whites are responsible and this demonstrates you are good reasoning and analysis

Typical of your thinking again... dont you see the contradiction here?... if the massive black experience in american isnt an example of racism that leads to violence I dont know what is...

Did you not say there are a multitude of issues that could cause african american violence? You can not say for fact that racism is being reinforced here as a contrubiting fact. It could be 1000 and one other motives. Prove to me that only your theory of racism as a contributer is being reinforced here.

Do you honeslty think that centuries of racism can be wiped in a few days ? Months?

Do you honestly believe that racism is a major cause in AFRICAN AMERICAN VIOLENCE?

I asked the question before how long will it take. Apparently ~6000+ years is more than enough time but is 500? 1000? 3000? Is there some absolute concerning your theory of racism which extends one's past suffering as an excuse for their behavior into the past that applies to all people of the world?

What time frames do you allow in your reasoning?

6000+ years but you regected that. An example of your incapacity to analysis data of course.

Do you realize how easy it is for someone to pass judegemtn when he hasnt lived even a fraction the pain and suffering someone one else has?

Oh i know you aren't talking about me Pax.

You'd goto a woman whose been raped all her life and say she had no right to beat her dirty uncle cuz it was years since she had last suffered a rape...

I would lock her up for assault. This is not an act of self defense its an act of venegence which the vast majorities of murders and assaults are.

You wonder why you confuse me when you use such emotional statements as this for comparison. How does this correlate to african americans living today in a society more free of racism then it ever has been. Even larry Elder admitts african americans are the ones who a propogating much of the racist violent acts.

The kind of reasoning you are providing would also validate white people's anger toward unwarrented african american violence. The majority of whites living today haven't committed racist acts against blacks. They haven't done anything to deserve african american violence perpetrated against them if there is infact much of it in comparison.

And again Im not asking you to stand up for them. Just give them the same access and infrastructure the average american family has had for the last couple generations.

Pax. They have that access. Weren't you listening when i provided to your before institutions set up to provide them with rights beyond that of whites to jobs and education? No one has stated they shouldn't have equal rights. No one has stated they should have more rights.

Do it for a couple generations.

We have Pax. Unless of coures afirmative action, quotas, government grants, myriads of scholarships and so on don't satisfy your interest.

Like i said before, many of these institutions are already in place and have been for more 30 years. Yet african americans are not taking advantage of them. A personal choice.

This aisnt about a fucing welfare check its about access to life outside the ghetto.

No shit it isn't. It much more than that.

Give them that and job opportunities and see what happens. Some blacks got opportunites and tok em and many are better today. Not all balcks got that access tho. And some need more to account for the lack of it in the past. But with even middle class families having a hard time today getting their kids into college I can only imagine what it is for blacks from the ghetto to get in...

They already have access to all these things pax through quotas and afirmative action alone and have for over 30 years.

 

[Willmeister]

Legion, could you *please* stop replying to every single line by quoting... posts are too long. I just ignore them now. There's no flow to them.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Man, I didn't even get a nod or a wink for my quote of kyleb. Nuttin'.

 

[RussSchultz]

Lost in all the quotes.