Can U.S. schools survive liberalism?
- Thread starter Sabastian
- Start date
I already argued with you over the GM suit of the 1960s Legion and in your stubborn typical self you even tried to justify that suit in the face of repeated simple explanations as to why the factories were bombed in the first place...
The gm story is a plain fact among many others which moore merely plagiarized from other sources...
I was really responding to Biggus and was hoping for a repsonse from him to see if there was any ability in him to see where Moore is really coming from and his motivations...
I know many americans whove moved up here who tell me that violence is much less in our cities than us cities. Ive many family members in california who say the same that crime is a mjor issue down there. And they live differently because of it.
If you say its because we have fewer blacks and hispanics then the other question you dont ask is why is there so much crime from those comunities. BFC dealt with that and showcases racism as a problem. Its simple fact the brits and their empire dropped slavery and the subsequent racism a bit sooner than the US did in the 19th cent. This is largely why the US will probably need another 50 years to a century to solve its crime issues with its minorities.
We have multiple studies in canada of crime and social dysfunctions bfore and after factory towns lose their paper mills or mine ect... So yeah joblessness and poverty greatly affect crime. Also a theme dealth by Moore in BFC. I accept the criticisms I read a year ago from similar links and yes I perused your links Legion... nothing new. Moore did lie and exagerate. BUt to say its ALL lies is absurd. Im just asking for a little bit of discernment here.
BFC does a good job to lead people to such conclusions. Even for all its faults it manages to draw some serious thought into a subject many americans would like to see only answered by more prisons and more executions. They wont solve anything if the underlying social issues arent dealt with.
The gm story is a plain fact among many others which moore merely plagiarized from other sources...
I was really responding to Biggus and was hoping for a repsonse from him to see if there was any ability in him to see where Moore is really coming from and his motivations...
I know many americans whove moved up here who tell me that violence is much less in our cities than us cities. Ive many family members in california who say the same that crime is a mjor issue down there. And they live differently because of it.
If you say its because we have fewer blacks and hispanics then the other question you dont ask is why is there so much crime from those comunities. BFC dealt with that and showcases racism as a problem. Its simple fact the brits and their empire dropped slavery and the subsequent racism a bit sooner than the US did in the 19th cent. This is largely why the US will probably need another 50 years to a century to solve its crime issues with its minorities.
We have multiple studies in canada of crime and social dysfunctions bfore and after factory towns lose their paper mills or mine ect... So yeah joblessness and poverty greatly affect crime. Also a theme dealth by Moore in BFC. I accept the criticisms I read a year ago from similar links and yes I perused your links Legion... nothing new. Moore did lie and exagerate. BUt to say its ALL lies is absurd. Im just asking for a little bit of discernment here.
BFC does a good job to lead people to such conclusions. Even for all its faults it manages to draw some serious thought into a subject many americans would like to see only answered by more prisons and more executions. They wont solve anything if the underlying social issues arent dealt with.
pax said:
Pax don't be obtuse. Even the democratic party had its far fare share of racists. Even the blacks them selves do. NRA probably had its racists memebers. It may still have. So may the democratic party. Moore doesn't state they may have racism in their background. He claims that they are some how the intellectual offspring of the KKK. That is a completely basless and moronic. The NRA didn't owe the blacks help pax. Why are you judging them for choosing to aid the blacks? They could have just sat back and never decided to get involved.pax said:
Pax we aren't even talking about SWM here. We are talking about CfB. Of course i am stubborn. Your arguments lack substance and are governed by your own ideology.
You may disagree with GM's involvement in WWII however that doesn't negate their right to seek payment for damages. I don't remember ever stating i agreed with what they did. I just simply stated they have a right to do so. You can complain about that all you want however GM is hardly representive of American business.
You seem to overstate the worth of the story. How does GM's behavior relate to the questions i asked of you; how Moore has justified his prejudice against the right, etc.
Pax can you not admitt what Moore did in BfC was completely inexcusable behavior for a documentor? His motivations are to asassinate the characters of various people in anyway possible including lying.
As if the two are even comparable. Canada has no where near the population per sq mile that major US cities have. Canada just isn't anywhere near as urbanized and has around 1/10 the population of the US. As i said before. Your stance is subjective and rests souly on opinion.Pax please stop posting this information if you aren't going to link it to anything. How does having more violence equate having more fear (fear being the cause of the violence)? That is putting the effect before the cause.
Simply put: culture. Do you think it is anything else? Do you think that most african americans live in fear and that is their motivator of violence? I have never heard that excuse in a single court hearing for murder.
Why do you suppose we have the violence from african americans? Do you some how feel it is justified?
Which is utter bs. Most violent crimes comitted by african americans are against other african americans. How on earth does racism play into this? Is racism actually a major issue in the US?
Those two facts are completely unrelated and you know this. African American culture incourages such acts of violence in many circumstances. If anything they are the products of their enviroment. Its is not up tp the whites, some being the decendants of slave owners from over 150 years ago, to fix their problems. African Americans in American society have a myriad of public programs to aid them in their progression as citizens. However these programs are largely under utilized by african americans themselves. There are plenty of success and productive african american citizens who do well in our society many of whom come from the same backgrounds and even the same neighborhoods as many of the aforemented criminals. Their only claim to progress that i have ever heard is motivation. Motivation to work to acheive in life. This is something no one has the obligation to give you say but your parents when you are young (a nother problem entirely).
That is true. However simply being jobless doesn't mean you have been kept from getting a job or going to school. Do you really believe business are blocking african americans out? Do you think they'd risk such a thing? Many corporations have a forced quota system (as do our schools), These quotas force companies to higher X number of african americans. There are plenty of job openings for african american engineers, doctors, accountants, programmers, etc. Why do you suppose that is? It is do to the fact so little african americans are pursuing such fields. The jobs are out there. African Americans simply aren't educating themselves for higher level occupations. Do you honestly believe any of this is some kind of racist plot against african americans?
And he simply tows the liberal party line by spreading the blame accross the field instead of where it truly lies.
Pax you confuse me. He lies but not everything he says is a lie. I didn't know that when you call some one a liar you imply everything they say is a lie. I don't think everything he says is a lie. Likewise i don't think any of what he has said is accurate. He surely isn't lying about his opinions. They are opinions after all Pax. Not facts. Please stop overstating his possition. He never proved anything he stated he merely suggested it. Do to his overly narrowminded summation of the situation i would emmediately assume he is innacurate.
You have it. I feel Moore's characterization of racism in america is nothing more than propaganda from his ilk and rather a 3 rate rendition of it. He lacks substance and supporting facts.
You'd have to be truly misinformed.
Why is it the white's responsibility to fix america's problems with cultural violence amongst african americans? African Americans are just like the rest of us - they are humans capable of rational thought. No one but themselves have decided to comitt the acts of violence they have. Most of which are either acts of passion/hatred or "caught in the action" reactions. Meaning most are either crimes of intentional violence as an act of revenge or violence in the act of comitting another crime.
Legion said:pax said:
This is the most politically correct statement out of you yet legion. Thers obviously more racism in different quarters of society as well as in different individuals... Citing racims in other groups doesnt negate the harm done in the past. And Im not saying its the only cause either. But its certainly cant be rejected as a cause. As for your main charge of ideology I dont know anything more ideological or blindness by it than to completely generalize an opponent like you do Moore. Its even worse when you say white america is no worse or no better than white britain...
There are better people than others even within a race. And at times better rulers who make better decisions. The brits decided to drop slavery early. We see less crime from blacks in those countries. As well as seeing less social and or institutional racism.
You want links? Google. Too lazy? At least look up the ones Moore gives and used.
Any group that claims to repesent a cause for the general public has a moral obligation to aid everyone not just those it deems worthy. The fact it took almost a century before the nra can be associated in anyway as a civil rights org says a lot. If anyone needed guns to protect themselves during that time it was the blacks.
And yours arent?
And your letting some legal loophole pass the moral imperative? Why? And why raise it in the context of the arguement? Where do we draw the line on bad laws and when do we make exceptions as otfen happens?
And cant you admit he has valid hypotheses however we may agree disagree on his methods or style? His hypotheses arent his own... they have been raised many times by various studies and sociologists ect... You're too quick to dismiss it out of hand... I see criticism that go nowhere like the lame one about the littleton missile factory. Talk about irrelevant. They make what looks like big weapons of war. They are in fact a large military contractor. Did the kids know those factories were only mkaing boosters?
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Wrong Canada is more urbanized. 80% live in urban centers. Agriculture is not big up here. Anbd you can compare other countries in the wesern world...
Want a link to my families email? BFC makes that arguement well. Slavery justified by racism surviving longer than in other western country. I dnt see how you can get but fear and violence among other ills from slavery and racism...
Thats too easy. And im not saying culture doesnt have anything to do with it. But its not the only answer. I mean you are denying us history right? Violent History leads to violence. Sins of the father...
No of course not. Its not about justifying. Its about proper analysis of a problem. You cant diagnose a solution to it unless we agree on some basic root causes.
Because again violence breeds violence. Some times you can stop violence with some forms of violence. Our propensity for war in the western world was somewhat halted by extreme violence in WW2. Im not saying that theres guaranteed a solution to ethnic violence in the us. Ive never made statemtns making any promises of easy solutions. But solutions are generally easier to find when we accept the causes...
Well I stand by that overview of history. But America is a huge country an no one answer will fit.
Well no the jobs arent all that out there... But that some blacks make it to a normal life says that with good contitions they can be as good as we are... Im not one to deny personal responsibility. One form of which I think is personal responsibility for what my country has done to natives up here for ex. We placed conditions that if they wanted to keep their ancestral and treaty rights they had to live on reservations... this led to endemic poverty and misery of various social ills as life on those isolated and often poor lands had few opportunities...
I actualy think the blame he spreads is basically one that says whites owe blacks. Do we owe them insane amounts of $? No but we do owe them an infrastructure weve taken for granted. Clean neighborhoods... I do think jobs havce beneednied balcks for so long it will take time for them to trust rintegartion int the mainstream. You can talk about quotas for hiring and schools but they havent been there that long... nowhere as long as slavery and the following century of persistent racism... I think to expect a complete turnaround of their social ills in a generation isnt realistic.
Um your statements have been pretty strong I find... I dont see you acknowleding anything moore has said as having value... Doesnt make me think of what youve said so far as anything but ideology because he attacks the right where you stand. Of course his docu is subjective But all his facts are wrong? That he has bad facts doesnt means they are all bad nor does it mean you cant reach the conclusion his opinion has some validity. This isnt ideology. No remedy has been offered in his docu. If he had made some such extraordinary claim at the end of the show Id have been surprised. He criticizes but like a half decent critic doesnt overly draw conclusions... I mean arent you impressed the well accepted left position on gun control isnt protrayed as such in BFC? If anything his docu justifies and is apologetic of the NRA. I find that pretty honest for someone deemd purely an ideologue.
Thats not discernemtn Legion. See Nuance. If you had built your various arguemtnsw by acknowledgingh Moore had made some valid points with those facts that are verified your position in refuting his opinions would sound a lot more legitimate not only to lefty ideologues but to the vast majoirty of us in the mainstream. Youll always impress your audiecne by not resorting to demonizing your adversary.
Youn assume I only read or think left. Thats a mistake. My last book was Bill Oreilly's... And my positions on various issues straddles the middle..
Of course its not just white americas responsibility. I dont see BFC saying that either. But to say we owe them nothing more is not valid. Societal problems on this scale cant be fixed easily. We're addicted to quick fixes... fast food, fast cars fast everything. Doesnt always work that way.
Since i provide evidence for my arguments they do not lack substance.
Of course not.
They can sue pax that doesn't mean they will win.
Its not a matter of admitting anything. he doesn't back his thesis. It hasn't been validated.
will you please name them? Will you please tell me what these studies were suggested to cover. You are making a rather general statement here as moore claims a lot. I want to know exactly what these reports say and why no one seems to know about them.
Of course, its oversimplified by his narrowmindedness.
excuse me? as if his bogus comment lead anywhere
. he was trying to state that people are some how likely to be more violent while living next to weapons factory. Such an argument is pure bunk. He never provided any evidence the plant did as he said. All he gave were a list of Lockheed contracts.It was perfectly relevant to the topic as it was an example of his dishonesty. I will however concur it was irrelevant to the progression of the movie.
talk about irrelevant. Is there some reason why these kids perception of the plant has significance to the columbine shooting? If so please explain. Wrong you have lower population density then the US does in its cities. You are not more urbanized. The population of your nation is around 1/10 of that of the US.
Pax do you feel your family is some how representative of all americans? How is your family's opinion relevant to the topic?
Which clearly isn't the reason for the violence. The violent progression has been more of a recent thing. As you can see society has become more open to race while african americans have become more violent. The two are indirectly proportional.
Pax, in your mind, is the human emotional spectrum so limited as fear and violence can be the only two possible motivators of more violence? What does this say about their children and how they are raised? Why is it that african american violence has shot way up from the 60's though society has become more accepting of african americans? Why are african americans mainly committing crimes against each other if race is some how involved?
What is the relation of fear and violence? Is not one the cause of the other? Criminal records and court cases do not reflect Moore's theory (hense the reason he neglected to include them). There are two major reasons for murder: hatred/passion and "crime in progress." Racism is not cited as the cause of said violence. This would mainly do to the paradox of a self hating african american racist.
No. Blaming fear is to easy.
And how do you know fear has anything to do with it? Again you have presented your case. You keep telling me that fear may exist but you haven't provided me a reason for why fear would be the main contributor to racial violence.
That isn't true and you know that. Europe is a far more peacefule place now then it ever has been in the past though they had much violence in their past.. Do you think that humans are mindless Pax? That they simply copy and mimic all other's around them? They have the capacity to break the chain some just lack the ethics to do so. That is a personal problem.
Simply slapping the "fear and violence" sticker on your diagnosis won't help you validate it either.
Really? Are you saying african americans are impervious to social reform? If so then how could anyone change them? Should we take their children away from them Pax so that they are never exposed to the violence of the society? How could you ever reform some one stuck in an ever present downward spiral of brutality if violence breeds violence without exception?
Your analysis is seriously lacking. You leave out so many factors: moral degeneration, family degeneration, lack of responsibility, lack of respect, etc etc. If racism plays a part it is one that is nearly invisible.
but violence breeds violence....
Hmmmm. Could this be said to be a great example of human ethics in action? You are certainly making the case that violence doesn't have to beget violence. Societies have changed. It takes internal and sometimes external stimuli. Without internal willingness there will be no catalyst for the change.
Then i suggest you do that by accepting the millions of other factors which all could invalidate the so called "fear and violence" analysis.
I am not so sure why you stand by your analysis when it so loosely applies to today. Pax how long shall we use the slavery excuse for their behavior? 250 Years? 300? 500? When will their society reach an age of attonement? The african americans of today have little or no exposure to what life was like for the slaves over 150 years ago. Surely it isn't the motive for them to kill others of their own race in the manner and amount they do. I am also willing to state african american's claims of exposure tp what they see as racism today is highly questionable, assinine and often fallacious.
Its going to take willingness from african americans.
How do you know this? Companies are often willing to higher african americans over whites do to quotas. They have an advantage if they seek the right level of education.
True.
Why? You didn't do a thing to them. Blaming yourself for that would be like me blaming myself for the distruction of jericho...
african american's today do not live under such policies. They have numbers of societal advantages. They just aren't talking them.
Why do whites owe the blacks for what happened over 150 years ago? We have given them civil rights and civil opportunities even white people don't have. There are plenty of whites who are willing to help out the african americans of whom i am one. The outreach exists the possibilities exist. Obviously there is something lacking? That something is motivation. Do to the break down of african american households children are increasingly turning to their peers as their psuedofamily. They aren't raise well if at all by their parents what they learn socially comes from their peers. Here is how the culture plays in. My theory is if you can reach the parents you can reach the kids not vice versa.
...the projects come to mind.
the projects were clean...then they moved in.
Pax keeping your area clean is a self responsibility issue. This is just an example of the lack of a work ethic. Seems so common amongst poor people. Almost makes you wonder if that was the cause of their poverty...
Segragation happens normally pax. Go to any highschool cafeteria and you will see this.
Pax there is so much evidence you are wrong in the fact that i have seen many african americans come from dirt poor families who have made something of themselves through effort. Its no where near as hard as you seem to think for an african american to get some kind of scholarship or finacial assistance. If an african american were to seek after a career he would be more than likely at a higher advantage of having it assuming he puts forth the effort.
The american public's acceptance of race has changed dramatically over the last 50 years. I can't even imagine how segragation would still play a factor 40 some odd years after the end of segragation.
Just analysising the logic is enough to reveal holes! 40 years inbetween then now as well as at least one or two generations. What explains the effect of segration on these later generations? Did they some how acquire segragation inforced indolence from their parents? If so wouldn't that point more to my theory of parental involvement?
More than 30 years and counting for the oldest. Plenty of time for those willing to persue a career to take advantage of afirmative action or prepare one's children for the future possibilities of easier higher education.
You still fail to explain how either of these have had valid emotional effecrs on the exslaves' offspring and those we know today. There simply is not valid excuse there. We are now 150 years away from slavery and 50 away from severe racism. If they were motivated to persue change they could go about it. Though many have taken advantage of these policies many more haven't. This is all a matter of ethics and values.
Who implied this? I simply stated the motivation just isn't there for most of them to persue higher education, work ethic, and standards of living. that is their choice. No one can force them to value any of these differently. My argument rest: If they choose to seek these services they can have them. They just simply aren't taking advantage of them.
mainly because i am aggravated that i have to argue with jerk-offs who can't admit the man is a chronic liar.
I certainly wouldn't because he said it Pax. The man is a goof.
Again you never answered the question. As a neo con how does he attack me where i stand? Explain.
For BfC yes i can safely say his inaccuracies and out right lies are overwhelming.
Its really not a question of whether his facts are accurate or not. Assuming that they were all true they still don't explain the numerous contradictions thoughout the docu. An example being the correlation of gun ownership to gun violence. Moore himself has to admit that canada has a great deal of fire arms as well as less gun violence. This comes as rather a shocker when he paints of the NRA as a group of gun toting murderous lunatics. His use of the antiNRA protests really hit the nail on the head. Those protestors were calling for gun control on illegal fire arms
. YES! You can not buy a fully auto MAC10 legally (especially not to a minor ). On top of that many states have an amunition legal limit of less than 15 bullets (IIRC). Perhaps the gentleman protestor was not thinking logically when he mentioned the MAC10 that had been used to kill his child, I just found it a bit odd he wasn't well informed. There were laws on the books that were supposed to prevent every possible incident that preceeded columbine which didn't. Why were these boys so intent on murder? Was it fear? No. It was revenge. You could also reach many other conclusions that are more based in sound reasoning.
As i just pointed above Moore uses incidents of violence completely unrelated to fear as methods to back his thesis. In affect he is expecting for you not to question the intent of the killers but to accept his proposal before hand and then fit all the puzzle pieces together from their.
Oh come now. Lets be a little more honest then that.
Possibly because his reasoning makes no sense logically.
Pax i will explain again why his possition is logically assbackwards!
here are a few reasons
1. he uses explains of hatred motivated violence as examples of his thesis
2. the culture of fear argument is fallacious. Take of a moment we compare canada to country A. Assuming that country A has less apparent violent crime, by his reasoning, would constitute canada being a culture of fear. There are so many things wich go into acts of violence and the possibility of them being comitted. One thing is sure fear is not the main motivator of violent crimes.
3. he lies to try and convey some points. Why does he do it? Ideology pax. He is a leftist and he hates the right and everything that represents it. He will lie to tarnish their character. Why would you take him seriously?
He lies and then criticizes the people in BFC for behaviors they weren't guilty of. Any objective person can sit down and read through his conjectures and see just how incapable he is of proving his point. A light should turn on in your head pax. If what he is saying is true of american culture why can't he provide real evidence of it?
Other than the misinformed protestors i am not surprised. There is a reason for this though! Moore tries to use for a comparison of violence between itself and the US. Canada has a hell of a lot of fire arms and so does the US. To state anymore on the issue would further the self contradiction he first made by attacking the behavior of the NRA after the Columbine Shooting (which he fabricated of course). Look above to what i said to Kylab concerning what Heston's speach said and what Moore presented. He was deliberately trying to provide the wrong impression of Heston and the NRA all the while claiming there was some "big gun rally" taking place which had actually been cancelled.
I would agree. The logic rather reinforces the NRA's reasoning. Which leaves me even more confused by Moore's acceptance of congradulations from Ms Brady over his presentation of the NRA and gun violence. This tells me he was intending to attack the NRA by labeling them as gun nuts while trying to hide the fact that guns aren't the cause of the violence.
Pax you leave me ever more confused. Which "facts" should i acknowledge? Which "facts" substantiate his proposal? You call this a nuance i call it irrefutable proof this man can't get from A to B by reasoning alone. Which points are valid and why pax? Please explain all of these in detail.
Pax in refutting his opinions i have demonstrated him to be dishonest and misinformed. This is exactly what i should have done and did. With regards to his opinions how valid could they be when there base rests on misinformation?
Actually that was rather a general statement not directed at you as an individual. Yes, if you agree his "facts" prove his claims you are misinformed.
This statement was directed at your agenda for social engineering.
No its valid. You just don't agree with it.
Don't you see this is exactly what Moore is playing into? He provides a very myopic analysis of the problem and then comes to nonsequitors based on his own flawed reasoning.
lets go on a witch hunt Pax. We'll get the bastards! Pax i'd be amazed if you could some how prove to me that these small pockets of racists influence society at all.Hold on now! Are you asserting the NRA is some how guilty because they were at worst silently condoning said behaviors? The same would have been true for all others who acted similiarly. Its funny to hear some one condone group blame for such behavior but then skirt the blame palestinians should receive for their lack of interest in supressing terrorism.
The facts remain. It wasn't the NRA's responsibility to do anything as it equally wasn't UC's chess club or football team to do anything either. The NRA did eventually help which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of people did. With this being said how can you continue to support Moore's accussation that they were at their roots some kind of a racist organization founded on the precepts of the KKK?
Pax that happened over 100 years ago. WTF man? There simply is no evidence that the NRA was or is a hate group.
How about Moore's completely blinded generalization of American that you so agree with?
You are implying that white america is some how worse?
Pax the two aren't even related.
Is that because they simply don't report it? Is it because they are a smaller country so on and so forth. Pax enough of the conjecture. You keep associating all these things as though you are proven they some how relate.Which ones exactly Pax? Pax this kind of irrational argumenation from you only serves to aggrivate me. You constantly generate and rail against strawmen, you make nonsequitor conclusions, you consistantly repeat your nonsequitors as proof of your claims. There could be a million and one reasons for you perceived difference of race relations in britain and america. You, for some reason, believe american whites are some how more corrupt then those in europe based on your conclusions about race. Your analysis is so terribly inaccurate i finding it shocking that you are surprised when I dismiss what you have said. Its rhetoric. You haven't proven a shread of it. This type of correlation equals causation fallacy seems to be a part of your normal debate process. I can't believe you have the gall to tell me i should look up a few examples of what Moore perceives as racism and accept these behaviors as the american norm. This is both insulting and stupid.
According to who? You? Even if those invididuals complete violate the code of conduct of the group? Ridiculous. Stop spouting your moral absolutes.
No pax it doesn't.
Oh will you cut out this emotional tripe? The NRA was not obligated to help the blacks out. It eventually did by its members consent. You haven't enough evidence to support the idea that the NRA wasn't involved in some way with african americans.
Why do you keep stating that 100 years statment? There were involvments before the 1900 century pax.
Sounds to me like Moore, being against the NRA, is actually for the KKK, which is against blacks.
And being against blacks isn't anything new for rich white men.
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And being against blacks isn't anything new for rich white men.
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Willmeister
Newcomer
Wow. What wonderfully flawed logic... and just how is Moore for the KKK? For that matter, how is the NRA, as an organization, pro- or anti-KKK? Does the NRA really care about the KKK?
To my knowledge the NRA, as an organization, had no stance one way or another in the civil rights movement. The NRA wasn't founded on giving the right to minorities (not just African-Americans) in the USA equal rights and priviledges under the law.
p.s. did you read Legions NRA historical facts? It seems that the NRA was formed of abolishonists, and has kept that general mindset through the civil rights movement (or else, we'd presume, they'd have fought the formation of the black NRA chapters who were using them as proxy to obtain weapons to defend themselves against the KKK).RussSchultz said:/
The little bit of twisted logic was just an application of Moore-sian analysis, a la the boomerang.
To not see any relationship between centuries of rasicm and slavery and the social ills suffered by that particular minority is the single biggest flaw Legion has in his reasoning. The NRA wasnt created by abolitionists it was created by ex northern union military. There were racists in the north and most of those who fought the south didnt do it over slavery but to merely protect the union.
The fact is the NRA stood by and did nothing for almost a century after its creation when other organisations did in fact fight for civil rights during that time. If that alone doesnt ring alarm bells I dont know what can. I man fro crying out loud your own lnks say what Im saying. Why would I need to post more links when your own NRA history links show they did squat to support black gun ownership until the mid 20th cent? What more do you want here?
There probably isnt a history class in the US where you could take such a refute of history and be respected in anyway. Its far worse to say centuries of oppression have no bearing on a groups orientation than to say its the only cause. Which unlike Legion's stance I wasnt saying.
There are so many links on google I dont know where to start Legion. Look em up for yourself. You live in a black and white world and it isnt so.
Start here maybe youll listen to him: http://www.jewishcommunityaction.org/gun_control_&_social_justice.htm
The fact is the NRA stood by and did nothing for almost a century after its creation when other organisations did in fact fight for civil rights during that time. If that alone doesnt ring alarm bells I dont know what can. I man fro crying out loud your own lnks say what Im saying. Why would I need to post more links when your own NRA history links show they did squat to support black gun ownership until the mid 20th cent? What more do you want here?
There probably isnt a history class in the US where you could take such a refute of history and be respected in anyway. Its far worse to say centuries of oppression have no bearing on a groups orientation than to say its the only cause. Which unlike Legion's stance I wasnt saying.
There are so many links on google I dont know where to start Legion. Look em up for yourself. You live in a black and white world and it isnt so.
Start here maybe youll listen to him: http://www.jewishcommunityaction.org/gun_control_&_social_justice.htm
pax said:
Pax are you every going to address the question i asked you? I wanted physical proof of these claims from you.
No pax i do not deny the years of racism can cause problems. I do believe that slavery but more so welfare has lead to african american indolence. However Pax i find your reasoning to be completely flawed. These again are human beings capable of breaking their cultural molds they have made for themselves. Society has changed a great deal since the 50's. African Americans have a great deal of advantage before them many of them choose not to take the advantage. I repeat many of them choose not to take it. That is there choice. Racism Pax isn't keeping them from suceeding. Racism doesn't have enough affect on our society anymore. Futhermore African Americans need to have a bit tougher skin. They dish out quite a bit in racist comments but can't seem to bare the brunt counter attacks. Pax they are simply going to have try. No one can force them to. They have no valid reason for not suceeding other than they simply don't want to. Again these are cultural issues many caused by the degeneration of family ties and community morals. I blame welfare a hell of a lot more than slavery for this as history demonstrates welfare to be a far more damaging institution.
What is your point Pax? This is absurd. They were not created as a racist institution that is a fact. You can try and hold against them the presence of racists among them but you could do that with every institution because i garauntee you that you will find some out there some where. YOu have no valid reason to attack them the way you have.
so fxcking what pax? Why is their responsibility to fix social ails? No. It wasn't. You are just trying to justify Moore's unreasonable anger. This happened more than 100 years ago Pax. People have changed since then. The fact remains the NRA was not a racist institution but rather one that stood against racism.
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Alarm bells for what Pax? What are you suggesting? What the hell are you suggesting? The damn demoncratic party was majorly racist during these times however but seems be the opposite now. New times new members. There isn't any perceivable danger here Pax.
Its is your moral opinion that they are some how obligated to help these people. No one has to share your beliefs and i am certianly not going to sit here while you rambel on with your emotional spam.
Pax! WTF?! The God of the Universe never stated the NRA had to help the blacks. There is no moral absolute binding them to such a cause! They did it because they cared. When so many other institutions didn't do anything why are you singling out the NRA? This is a ridiculous argument you are posing simply to attack there character! jesus christ pax this happened over 100 years ago. They clearly aren't the institution now you think they were then. Don't blame them for the KKK killing blacks! Do you blame gun makers for not freely distributing guns to though in high crimes areas to defend themselves? The KKK isn't even a part of the reason african americans are the way they are today. Pax we all have had 150 years to change with the african americans far behind. Pax so many generations have come and gone since then. The indolence we see today is something that is "taught" culturally. That is the problem. Same as a lot of racism. How much time should we award them without responibility to change Pax? 200 years? 300? 500? How long are people like yourselves going to use the racism/slavery argument to excuse the fact that a hell of a lot of these people are just damn lazy? They make the end choices Pax. In the end it is their value structure that decides what they do with their lives not society. Society is not to blame for an inviduals choices. yes society can surely influence you but you in the end make the decisions.
There are and i have done so! There are also black historians who also state blacks have personal responsibility. They aren't children for christ sakes. They have a mind of their own! They are at the forfront of culture today! Racism doesn't even touch must of them and what does touch them are their own hatreds for whites and jews.
THe Jews are another topic entirely. African Americans have consistantly turned on the people who were trying to help them and each other. The Jews bent their asses over backwards for the blacks in the 60s ending with the blacks turning on them. Its an absolute joke. Stop treating them like babies! Its that kind of behavior which motivates them to stay the way many of them are.
As i have already stated the african americans who have succeeded generally give the same story: their success was do to the work they put into achieving. Any one should be able to do this pax. There is nothing keeping them down.
That is exactly what you are saying. You are suggesting they are inable to break away from some post slavery mold. Jesus their culture is nothing like what it used to be back then. Their personal ails are things they have fostered.
Now you post opinions to support opinions as if they were facts
. Jesus pax i could find any number of arguments across the web. THe most striking actually come from my father in law who states pretty much what i have said. He happens to be black. It is the successful blacks who seem to be saying the poor blacks just aren't trying.I am reading it now and it is clear that it is a piece of emotional propaganda.
This statement from the author is bullshit. Look up court records! Racism has nothing to do with black on black violence what so ever. The most reported intent was anger or hatred generated by runs ins with certain characters. The blacks themselves comitt these crimes, not the whites. THe mere fact the violence occurs is do to the lack of value african americans have for each other not that of the whites for the blacks. The whites are the ones who for the last 50 or some odd years have been working to try and surpresss such violence with little or no success.
The author never provides factual evidence for his claims throughout the piece.
There are more than 5,000 gun control laws on the books today. Most of the guns these african americans commit crimes with are guns that are ILLEGAL or STOLEN or BOTH! Making them more illegal has done nothing to curb violence! The author is in error. Moore and yourself even agree that guns are not the cause of violence. Moore is just to much of coward to admitt the person pulling the trigger is.
What is Congress to do to curb the violence? The author's emotional reasoning defeats itself. How much more illegal can they make illegal fire arms? it is a felony to do what they have done. Should we now give them the death penalty as a way to curb the violence
? There are plenty of nations with a hell of a lot fire arms per capita with less violence then the US. Guns clearly are not the cause of the violence yet the author repeats his emotional diatribe.The author clearly isn't thinking. Most of the criminals criminals who use the guns to commit crimes are walking around with concealed fire arms! How has making this behavior illegal stopped them from doing this?
Common sense and the author doesn't grasp it.
Even Moore's evidence seems to substantiate guns and violence are not directly related.
Does the author some how forget the criminals are already walking around with guns that are illegal? All this law does is allow law abiding citizens to do the same. This author is obtuse.
Why is that? The criminals already have guns
. The police have no business treating the rest of us and criminals in the making.Really? Of course the author can not supply a method.
Seems the author is willing to admitt racism has nothing to do with this.
Us wicked gun toting jews....
We had reasonable gun control 20 years ago. Now we simply have laws which restate what has been stated over and over again in a hopeless effort to kurb violence. The more laws there are the more crime there seems to be. I am not saying the laws cause this. I am saying the laws are doing nothing to stop a culturally motivated behavior.
Of course this random sample didn't acquire information on how informed these people are or their political agenda. Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Accept for when the great Elohem wants us to nock off a village right? Great YHWH the forgiving and merciful
.Yes infact it does. The siege of jericho wasn't murder....because Hashem said so.
I think this is an emotion shared by many cultures.
Well we killed a lot of people back in the day....
Why not dedicate yourself to learning how to argue with logic first. You'd be more affective.
We did years ago. But the blacks blamed us for their societal conditions and turned against us during the civil rights era.
Pax it kills me that you posted this link that is against the NRA's support of gun ownership when you have blamed the NRA for not providing fire arms earlier.
You keep saying things Ive never said legion its so pointless arguing with you. Never said the nra was created as a racist institution... Im arguing it wasnt created as a civil right org... That some racists existed in the north is a plain fact. Racism has existed in many guises at various levels.
You want physical proof of what is common knowlegde in the US? Are you in the US or an outside observer? If you cant add the simple ramifications of historical obervation of causes and their effects I cant help you.
It may be true racism has little effect today but the effects of the generations of past racism can most certainly be said to still have repercussions... Thats all Im trying to say. One of the few points BFC was trying to say too. I dont see the need to argue against this. You can argue degrees as to how much we can attribute the effect pf past racism but a lot of your arguing was unequivocal...
I do think they should try to better themselves. And we can try to help . If we can oppress people for generations I dont see why we should give up helping them after only at most one generation (if you consider approx 40 years about a generation).
Anyone will agree that any meausre hads to be stick and carrot. IM arguing for more carrot over stick. Your stance sounded pretty much only stick. Im getting hints of a braoder understanding now with your massive posts and thats good...
Enough for me now anyway. BFC is old. Arguing over it reminds me of 1-2 year old arguments and massive newsgroup posting I dont have the time or energy for anymore... Time to bury that hatchet and maybe we should check out his latest book and argue over that.
heck maybe he learned to be more careful with his new stuff...
PS The link I gave was only showcase that the commonly held idea of repercussions of racism isnt only my own or Moore's... not the gun bit. I dont agree with much of gun control either remember? Id even roll back some gun control too...
You want physical proof of what is common knowlegde in the US? Are you in the US or an outside observer? If you cant add the simple ramifications of historical obervation of causes and their effects I cant help you.
It may be true racism has little effect today but the effects of the generations of past racism can most certainly be said to still have repercussions... Thats all Im trying to say. One of the few points BFC was trying to say too. I dont see the need to argue against this. You can argue degrees as to how much we can attribute the effect pf past racism but a lot of your arguing was unequivocal...
I do think they should try to better themselves. And we can try to help . If we can oppress people for generations I dont see why we should give up helping them after only at most one generation (if you consider approx 40 years about a generation).
Anyone will agree that any meausre hads to be stick and carrot. IM arguing for more carrot over stick. Your stance sounded pretty much only stick. Im getting hints of a braoder understanding now with your massive posts and thats good...
Enough for me now anyway. BFC is old. Arguing over it reminds me of 1-2 year old arguments and massive newsgroup posting I dont have the time or energy for anymore... Time to bury that hatchet and maybe we should check out his latest book and argue over that.
heck maybe he learned to be more careful with his new stuff...
PS The link I gave was only showcase that the commonly held idea of repercussions of racism isnt only my own or Moore's... not the gun bit. I dont agree with much of gun control either remember? Id even roll back some gun control too...
pax said:
If so then why are you so intent on pointing out what you view as an error from over 100 years ago?
Its the National Rifle Association...
What does this have to do with the NRA? It wasn't a civil rights group by your own admittion. Screening racism wasn't an issue,
What you have stated is not common knowledge pax. Its your opinion.I you to answer the questions as i asked them.
Pax i don't need to answer such questions. You need to provide physical evidence. You should be able to do that regardless of where i come from.
That is why i would argue more in the favor that the welfare statism is what has lead to the behaviors we are seeing today. This doesn't at all excuse their behaviors mind you. Many cultures from around the world have experienced similiar and have moved on with their lives. Its a matter of choice.
Thats fair however it isn't a valid excuse. I think if you involved yourself with the culture you would find they merely have a different value structure than you do. Hense they place higher values on things that you would otherwise ignore.
As far as Moore stating that racism may have impacted society at a certain point in US history i haven't many concerns. However i would definately disagree that fear and racism are the cause of violence in african american communities, white, or other. There just isn't any sound argumentation from him to back his position. As i have stated he gave his opinion and never validate it.
I am obviously not for avoiding helping them. I am against throwing money at a situation that won't mend itself and blaming others for a populations choices. I am for working for a situation that goes two ways.
I am not quite sure what you mean. I have been refering to topics of responsibility diffusion and projection. I feel Moore view of the impact of racism on modern society is horribly inaccurate.
My position has been that Moore is a crack pot who deceives people. He is free to argue whatever he wants i just expect him to validate his claims with evidence. Aside from that he had no business receiving the award for BfC. His work was a work of fiction not nonfiction. Lying is not acceptable even if his position is in fact correct.
Pax. Be serious. He was deliberately dishonest. Seriously, look at the things i have shown you.
yes it happens to be a view the liberals often parrot by never provide evidence for. Even the article you posted didn't bother to link these behaviors to racism.
Pax you didn't read what i said. In the paragraph where i refered to you use of the article i pointed out you agree that gun control isn't the answer to curbing gun violence. I was just saying its rather ironic you posted a link from some guy who feels completely the opposite.
Ive read the links and most date from last year and havent been much updated. They cant take BFC and refute point by point by point all hes said. They simply show where Moore went wrong and lied or misunderstood what actually happened. But theres still not enough there to condemn moore for his hypotheses. You can make a strong claim that Moore isnt afraid of lying to prove his points by the errors in BFC. But you have no real physical proof or basis that after only about 40 years after apartheid that the past racism has no basis as an influence for the violence still around today. Your links offer no such conclusive proof and I dont think anything short of a massive study and investigation of social and psychological profiles of thousands if not millions of blacks will ever prove it 'physically' as you say.
Its really a red herring asking for 'physical' proof of the cause of such a complex and profound issue as black violence in america. As if US history isnt enough...
My position is moderate on that. That there is a self sustaining culture that promotes violence in the black community is seen but that some of it is the remnants of a long exercised brutal past and to some much lesser degree still present racism is virtually an exercise in stupidity to refute. How many historical examples of past mass brutality with long lasting effects do you need? Does the holocaust not affect the jewish community still today? Did the armenian oppression by turks from about 100 years ago not motivate recent films and activism in the armenian community about it? Dont the muslims still recount the horrors of the 200 years of terror the crusades left on their community from 800 years ago?
on and on... Jews whove witnessed history throught millenia know this. Sins of the father... Where do you think that came from? Why do we suffer 'Adams sin'? What does that mean actually? Talk to a rabbi...
If I ever want to debate it with links I will since your too lazy to google. But I dont need to satisfy my curiosity on this as its been long ago presented in books and docus from so many various sources and to a sufficient degree that I dont dispute the idea only the degree of racisms influence.
Notice I dont ask you for links? I accept the idea of personal responsibility but I dont generalize it... Moores hypotheses is so vast as to out of hand refute it from the few lies hes told makes any argument stance untennable as is. The onus is really on you... Its not as if hes the first one to go about looking into this you know... And whether you are american or not shouldnt blind you to that...
Its really a red herring asking for 'physical' proof of the cause of such a complex and profound issue as black violence in america. As if US history isnt enough...
My position is moderate on that. That there is a self sustaining culture that promotes violence in the black community is seen but that some of it is the remnants of a long exercised brutal past and to some much lesser degree still present racism is virtually an exercise in stupidity to refute. How many historical examples of past mass brutality with long lasting effects do you need? Does the holocaust not affect the jewish community still today? Did the armenian oppression by turks from about 100 years ago not motivate recent films and activism in the armenian community about it? Dont the muslims still recount the horrors of the 200 years of terror the crusades left on their community from 800 years ago?
on and on... Jews whove witnessed history throught millenia know this. Sins of the father... Where do you think that came from? Why do we suffer 'Adams sin'? What does that mean actually? Talk to a rabbi...
If I ever want to debate it with links I will since your too lazy to google. But I dont need to satisfy my curiosity on this as its been long ago presented in books and docus from so many various sources and to a sufficient degree that I dont dispute the idea only the degree of racisms influence.
Notice I dont ask you for links? I accept the idea of personal responsibility but I dont generalize it... Moores hypotheses is so vast as to out of hand refute it from the few lies hes told makes any argument stance untennable as is. The onus is really on you... Its not as if hes the first one to go about looking into this you know... And whether you are american or not shouldnt blind you to that...
pax said:
You can email the writer he is planning to do an update. The refutations that are alreayd there don't need to be replaced. It isn't as if they lose their validity by age.
They odn't need to. THe author refutes what little "evidence" moore has behind his claim. Moore is entitled to his opinions whether or not they are wrong.
In otherwords these situations weren't actualy proof of his claims.
Like i said he is entitled to his opinions though they may be wrong. His hypothesis wasn't disprove or proven by his docu. However his docu points to cultural issues rather than fear as the cause of violence.
Then he certainly shouldn't have won and award for it.
Wether they think or feel there is racism should have no baring on what they plan to do with their lives. Thought they may feel there is racism doesn't mean there is racism. IT also certainly is not the reason for their place in life. They have made choices not to persue higher education. managing their self image is not our responsibility.
What an easy excuse to come to. One that will last centuries to come. Pax, african americans are no less racist than anyone else in the US though everyone else seems to be getting along fine. As you said the issue is complex. Simply shouting "racism racism!" won't help to answer the numerous questions that lurk behind the politics of the scene.That isn't even true pax. The violence we see in african american culture has dramatically increased in the last 20 years. It is certered around failing moral and inappropraite value system. Racism has nothing to do with gang violence, street wars, drive bys, the majority of murders and so forth.
What you are suggesting is ludicrous. You are completely dismissing personal responsibility. These events in their majority happend over 50 years ago. Much of african american cultural standards that we discussing have been formed within the last 20 years. The members of this newer culture are not over 40. The violence they know is their own cultures violence which feeds of failing families and the lack of ethics.
As you can see from your own reference the practice is fairly different. The jewish people didn't become violent after being exposed to violence. Why is that? Difference in a moral system.Pax arguing with you is like arguing with a feminist. You are all emotion lacking completely in logic.
How on earth do you associate african american violence and community films on oppression in you mind? Violence in this case is a personal issue. As i have already re;lated excusing their behavior by something that ended over 150 years ago is inexcusable. This is a reflection of their lack of a moral code.
Pax your inability to links these actions to african american violence is humorous.
My people were slaves over 3000 years ago. The violence we see in the middle east must by there because the jewish populations were slaves over 3000 years ago. They can still remember being slaves you know. They read the torah.
Regardless if they remember slavery or not (which they don't known of them were involved in it) african americans make a person choice to commit violent acts. Being punched in the face doesn't give me equal cause to hit some one else. I am tired of similiar excuses.
Pax you really can be funny at times. DOn't forget jesus rid us all of the sins of the father. Don't forget that. Maybe the africans americans just need to be saved and all the violence will just go away
.Pax violence is a personal choice and in the case of african americans violence has been the progression mainly of the later half of the 20th century. It is completely unrelated to racism.
Pax you are far to lazy to provide any evidence to explain your position and answer the questions i have asked you. I don't have to try and prove your claims you do. Its a matter of opinion and it is also rather assinine.
Not surprising. You want to convey your unchanging beliefs. You yourself know you can't support your claims. So why would you ask anyone else to.
You are the one who is generalizing by stating african americans committ violence because the were exposed to racial violence until about 50 years ago. This just isn't so. Look at the statiscs from 1950 to 2000. Check out the rise in african american violence yourself.
Its is also not validated by anything he says.
You have this assbardwards. The onus is on him to prove his claim. He hasn't done this. This onus is not on others to disprove his opinions.
Moore its not as if i am the first american saying what i am saying either or looking into the information as well.
The authors cant refute history which is most of BFCs evidence.
.
Thats what I meant by self sustaining culture...
Um no im not saying personal resp isnt a factor. Im saying its not the only factor. More examples.. The chechens who were oppressed 70 years ago now want their own state. The Irish want Northern ireland back as part of Ireland... with the last social racism in ireland going back to about 40 years ago...
My examples arent meant ot be linked to balck americans they are meant as examples of ihstory were similar things happened. Your physical proof you want...
Thats a subjective overview of the immigration into Israel of european jews. It wasnt as peaceful as some would think. And of course the incredibly brutal but short lived rise of anti semitism in germany did to european jews what we did to native americans. It largely killed them off in a genocide... dead people dont fight back...
Historical examples again... armenians (and kurds as well) have led at times a violent uprising against turksbecause of past oppression that predates the 60's civil rights gain of blacks in america. I shouldve defined
activism I suppose... its not the peaceful acronym its always made out to be.
Certainly dont agree with anythgin ending 150 years accroding to you. Racism was endemic till the 1960's in the US. At least respect the dates history gives us...
Thats not what was meant... I didnt post various historical examples to link them to the black experience in america... dont be silly. They are examples of what happens in human history of oppression or are you giong to throw out your generalized arguement of personal repsonsibility after centuries of suffering on those people as well?
A punch in the face? Do you even have a clue to make such comparisons? Again you can affect discernemtn from a puch in the face to cneturies of slvaery and racism... as if the 2 could possibly be linked as any kind of proper metaphor...
This is where you go too far. And where BFC didnt dare tread. Not only did Moore resoudnly ackowledge that the NRA pro gun policies werent the problem which showcased amazing objectivity, if a of sorts, for someone deemed by most an extreme left winger. But he only moderately addresses the cause of racism and fear in american society as a possible and one of many causes. Moore never used his theory of racism to generalize like you do here again. Making him look a lot better than you do on the subject.
My evidence is US history backed up by myriad examples of world history. You simply choose to ignore it.
I wasnt generalizing racism as the only cause. I was saying it was a cause among others. Do you know what generalizing means?
This is generalizing...
The onus is on you to prove your reason for black violence. Im not asking for you to disproved Moore... only prove your own hypotheses and how you can say in the face of as many histrorical examples at your disposal that past oppression has no bearing on the issue...
Your hypotheses is far more outrageous than Moore's.
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Moore doesn't site real history Pax. Much of what he rights is tainted by his political slant or out right fabrications. He hasn't provided any factual evidence to substantiate his claim. Him stating he believes violence comes from fear and providing his depictions of fear doesn't validate his hypothesis. He needs to show why and how fear is the cause of violence in american society.
Pax what is your point? People's views on the world are affected by many things in life. Not one being the end motivator. People make decisions to behave certain ways. How do african americans from the present have any real exposure to racism?
No Pax. I wanted you to demonstrate how racism towards african americans lead them to be violent. They have the capacity to think on their own. There are many culture who have been exposed to violence and have not turned to violence as a sollution to their problems.
And you think this violence was related to the holocaust or an issue of self defence?
Examine germany's history. They have long history of antisemitism. THis wasn't "short lived rise." The jews of europe are used to persecution and annihilation by christians. Yet they haven't turned against christians or each other in fits of rage.
Check it out for yourself. The answer would be yes just on a lesser scale.
Again, these people aren't responsible for their because the white man killed their ancestors in the past? Egyptians killed my ancestors should i hate the egyptians?
Pax you aren';t thinking about what i asked you! How do you correlate making a film with people choosing violence? There is no logical link between the two in terms of behavior. These "examples" are irrelevant.
ok then make it 40 years ago. Your point is still invalid. The violence we have seen in the african american community has risen with in the last 20 years dramatically. Racism has nothing to do with this. Again most of these crimes are black on black crimes. No you didn't. You provided examples of armenians making films and a blurb about the irish. You made a comparison you didn't explain why some the african americans can't be violent. The jews have been persecuted by Europeans for hundreds of years yet we aren't committing mass actions of violence against one another. The tale of the jewish people is an example of a group who are willing to strive success. This is apart of their value structure. African Americans lack this hense the reason they are not persuing success.Pax you don't seem to see you haven't validated your claims. You have provided examples of people making films and irish cultural progression but you haven't explained why the african americans, though many other people have suffered, can't seem to move on with their lives and succeed!
Name me one african american alive that knows what it feels like to be in american slavery.African americans today are far removed for the racism of the past and of course slavery. They can not continue to use either of these as excuses not to succeed. The comparison i made is valid. They promote violence because some one was violent with them by your reasoning. The Jews amongst other cultures have dealt with a hell of a lot more suffering then late 20th century african americans yet the all seem to continue to persue self improvement and personal success. What in God's name do any of these african americans between the ages of 20 - 30 know of slavery and racism? Probably about as much as i know of it while living around them. I have received far more racist abuse from african americans then any other population i have ever been around. I know racism. Yet i am not using that as an excuse to do nothing with my life. It should be readily apparent to you that racism has little to do with the current culture of african americans. The violence they know as a society now comes from their lack of a value structure that values their own human life. Using the 60's as an example we saw african americans together fighting for their civil rights. They did this together. They succeeded in the face of adversity. Then not 20 years later their sense of community began a dramatic decline. In the 60's they made a choice. They made the choice to stand up for what they believed was right. Now we excuse some of their people's behavior because of the racism they fought and beat in the 60's. What caused this massive backslide? Their lack of holding to said values. That is why each generation later become increasingly amoral.
Your reasoning is about as assinine as if i were to claim the african americans can't behave in society because their great ancestors were living in violent tribal situations. Its ridiculous but by your logic its a valid argument. Since they have heard of or read about violence against them as a culture they are some how excused in being indolent.
Pax how many years will this be allowed to continue? How long should they be allowed to make these same excuses before they decide to step up and do something with the rights they fought so hard to have. They put all that effort in then why can't they now? This is the nature of question i am asking you. In order to receive civil rights the african americans had to put forth effort to acquire them. They may have received them over time but nearly as fast as they would have with effort. What they did in the 60s is a clear example that there is simply no excuse for how so many of them have turned out so poorly today.
Moderately addresses? He put up a damn cartoon showing the NRA handing gas to the KKK to burn crosses Pax. Jesus Christ. Amazingly objective my ass. Pax your compliments of him are unwarrented.
Generalize like i do? He blames basically everything on fear.
No one here is generalizing but you and moore.
Again you have not provided evidence suggesting african americans are incapable of succeeding do to racism.
Please look up the statistics yourself.
No it isn't. He doesn't provide evidence. You simply choose not to see that. This is an example of your personal denial and lack of comprehenion.
OMG what absolutely flawed reasoning. Moore suggests fear, you suggest racism but i have to prove that neither of these are the ultimate cause. How one dimensional your view of humanity is Pax. Examine court hearings and trials, culture, etc you will see many of the motives have to do with relationships and profit.
which is exactly what you are saying you aren't asking. My hypothesis is he is full of shit. There isn't evidence for his claim that fear or racism causes the violence. He rights african americans off as mindless savages driven by some kind of monkey see monkey do behavior. Its insulting.Here is a link to Larry Elder's response to Moore's views on racism
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/larryelder/le20030116.shtml
Pax can you please use some discretion? Can you. Please cut out your emotions from this argument. No one stated racism doesn't affect some one some where. I have stated there isn't any evidence linking racism to violence within the african american communities.
Certianly Mr Ideologue. It is ridiculous because i call for them to stand up and stop bitching just like they did in the 60's. No one is going to do it for them.
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