Buying new TV - Go LED or wait for 3d?

[djskribbles]

The thing that annoys me about the eglelit Samsungs is the dynamic contrast. It is waaay too dynamic, jarring really.

I think what you're explaining is the dynamic backlight system. To achieve deep blacks, CCFL or LED edgelit LCD's have to dynamically dim the backlight whereas an LED LD LCD can just dim certain areas to maintain a high contrast ratio. I agree... I don't like this either. This is one of the things that's supposedly better on the new models (less noticeable fluctuations in the backlight).

The Panasonics are very bad about this, but the Samsungs are tolerable. And this is worst case scenario with banks of florescent lights glaring down on them. Still this is one area in which they could make vast improvements.

Their upper class plasmas (Samsung) have better, darker screen coatings (the B650 and up). The B650 has the "FilterBright Plus" coating, and the B8xx series has the "Ultra FilterBright Plus" coating. The entry level plasmas (B5xx series and down) have the basic "FilterBright" screen coating.

To be fair the Samsungs are visibly brighter, so a little more IR can be expected.

Also there is something fishy going on with the black levels on the Pannies.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10447329-1.html

Yeah, there's a big thread over at AVSForum. Even after the rise, though, the blacks are still fairly good and comparable to Samsung. Whether their 2010 models have the same issue remains to be seen. Apparently, the voltage changes after a certain time, and this is "normal" according to Panasonic as it happens to extend the life of the panel or something.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Canada. Can't spend too much money. I'd say under $1500 CAD, but closer to $1000 CAD. Canadian prices kind of suck. I'm just looking for something small, even 32" would be fine, I think. Right now I have a miniscule ancient tv and a 24" monitor.

I'm worried about colour banding with Sharp. I read in some places the LE700 series panel fixed the problem, but in other places they say it wasn't fixed.

The Sony KDL32XBR9 seems ok as a small tv, and I could get it cheap if I could find one.

 

[V3]

Image retention is burn in, but there's temporal IR (which is normal) and permanent IR (which is rare these days). I guess it depends on who you ask though. Some people go by these terms while others go by image retention and burn in.

You can go by that terminology too I guess. Though temporal IR in Plasma can last for days. That's why they get such a bad rep in that area.

Value for money, it's hard to beat plasma. But if you're analytical type plasma would likely drive you crazy with some of its shortcomings.

 

[djskribbles]

Canada. Can't spend too much money. I'd say under $1500 CAD, but closer to $1000 CAD. Canadian prices kind of suck. I'm just looking for something small, even 32" would be fine, I think. Right now I have a miniscule ancient tv and a 24" monitor.

I'm worried about colour banding with Sharp. I read in some places the LE700 series panel fixed the problem, but in other places they say it wasn't fixed.

The Sony KDL32XBR9 seems ok as a small tv, and I could get it cheap if I could find one.

Believe me, I know (I live in Canada as well).

How far do you sit? Even if you think 32" is big enough, I would get the biggest TV you can afford and/or that will fit in your space. That's one of the reasons why I upgrade TV's so often.

But yeah, I'm not a fan of Sharp at all personally.

I would try to find one of these models:
Panasonic TCP42S1, TCP42G10 (plasmas)
LG 42LH90 (LED local dimming)
These are all 09 models and might be harder to find. Or you can take a look at the new Sony 40EX700 (LED edgelit).

I find that the smaller electronics stores are easier to bargain with (like Visions if you live out west). Futureshop is ok, but Bestbuy seems to be firm on their prices.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Well, I probably sit 10 feet or more away from my crappy old 20 inch tv, or whatever it is. My 24" wide monitor I sit pretty close, unless I'm watching movies where I'll sit about six or seven feet away.

 

[BRiT]

I game several hours a night on my plasma (Panasonic TCP54V10) and after watching something else for a short while the temporary image retention is gone. The only noticeable areas are where there's static high-contrast images, such as a HUD using Black/White realm (Gears of War 2 style). I have not noticed any IR from Modern Warfare 2.

I actually suffer more and longer duration of IR on my 24" Dell LCD 2405, and I use it less than the HDTV.

 

[BRiT]

I forgot to add, if money is a concern, I wouldn't bother with being concerned about 3D displays. I think the technology will continue to change over the next few years, so even if you dive in now, it may not provide enough benefit to be worth it.

 

[Mize]

Yeah, the horizontal line is gone, but it was there for a movie an annoyed me. For movies I definitely prefer the plasma. I have yet to see an LCD where I couldn't detect some regional brightness issues or that stationary line effect (whatever it's called). Only problem is I only have one PS3 and two 360s so I had to move the PS3 with the Plasma which leaves me no room for my HTPC and the second 360

 

[BoardBonobo]

I use a Sony KDL 40" for gaming, on which all the 'extras' are switched off. It has zero lag and an exceedingly nice definition.

 

[djskribbles]

Pretty much all modern day HDTV's have lag... it's just a matter of how bad it is and whether you notice it or not. Casual gamers probably wouldn't notice lag even if it was quite high. If it's under 50ms, a lot of gamers probably wouldn't even notice any lag. If it's ~30ms or less (considered very low for an HDTV), even hardcore gamers wouldn't notice any lag. Also depends on the game because as proven the the digital foundry article, games have lag themselves.

 

[Mize]

Well even LCD monitors have lag compared to CRTs.
Is there a database of HDTV lag times?
I'm pretty sure my Sharp 60" CCFL is pretty low with all the enhancements off...

Edit: also, how much additional (if any) lag do you get running a console hdmi through a surround sound system and then on to the LCD?

 

[djskribbles]

Well even LCD monitors have lag compared to CRTs.
Is there a database of HDTV lag times?
I'm pretty sure my Sharp 60" CCFL is pretty low with all the enhancements off...

Edit: also, how much additional (if any) lag do you get running a console hdmi through a surround sound system and then on to the LCD?

If it's works as it should, there shouldn't be any lag. I'm guessing it depends on the AVReceiver. I'll try my Pioneer when my basements finished and I can finally hook up my surround sound again. I've already tested with my PS3 hooked up directly to my TV.

 

[BoardBonobo]

Pretty much all modern day HDTV's have lag... it's just a matter of how bad it is and whether you notice it or not. Casual gamers probably wouldn't notice lag even if it was quite high. If it's under 50ms, a lot of gamers probably wouldn't even notice any lag. If it's ~30ms or less (considered very low for an HDTV), even hardcore gamers wouldn't notice any lag. Also depends on the game because as proven the the digital foundry article, games have lag themselves.

I would guess that I'm in the hardcore gamer sect then.

 

[homerdog]

Yeah the Panasonic's have rising black levels. It's an issue. Basically, the black levels worsen over time. So in the end the black level advantage they have over the Samsung plasma's erodes.

Yup, and as djskribbles pointed out, Panasonic claims this is normal and expected.

 

[specwarGP2]

You can turned most of the processing off. But most models give you limited control and not full control to calibrate your set.

Sony's game mode gives you full control over picture adjustments. The only thing you can't change are adjustments that deal with motion (motionflow & cinemotion) which are set to off.

 

[London Geezer]

Even with all its limitations, i rather die than go back to LCD now, after having spent a couple of years with a really nice (and not even that expensive) Panny Plasma.
Image retention is a non-issue and the clarity, sharpness, black level and contrast are so above anyone else's TV i've seen (well apart my best mate who has a new Panny Plasma with the new NeoPDP screen) that i will simply never go back.
Compared to all the LCD screens i've seen, the best way to describe it is that it has a natural look, while LCD does not.
It's not even Full-HD and its sharpness and detail shocks me (and anyone watching with me) at times.
I was a bit worried when i started gaming on it (i was mainly a movie guy before i made the terrible mistake of buying a PS3, which has been eating my social life ever since), but not only it has given me no problems, but it's just brilliant to play games on.
I'll just wait for this one to die in a few years and get OLED, or whatever is out at the time.
Anyone still talking about burn-in either doesn't have a plasma, or has a very, very old one.

 

[Brimstone]

IMHO, plasmas are safe to game on, but I would be hesitant to buy a Samsung plasma for gaming. Not sure about LG plasmas, but their 09 plasmas weren't very good so I wouldn't recommend them anyway.

LG plasmas offer some of the best bang for the buck.


The 2009 LG 60PS80 got a good review in Home Theater Magazine. They note the black levels aren't near a Kuro, but the LG cost half the price.

The LG’s picture is bright and crystal clear. It’s less bright than most LCDs, but it’s plenty bright for any application outside of a sun porch. (The LG is about 30 percent brighter than the equivalent-sized Pioneer mentioned in this review.) It’s vividly colorful but not in an obviously exaggerated way. And it’s so detailed that you’ll see everything the source has to offer, limited only by your seating distance and visual acuity.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/flat-panels/lg_60ps80_plasma_hdtv/index2.html


The LG 2010 PK models (60PK950 & 50PK950) are getting a new filter that should improve the black levels and reflections. I think they have a 3d plasma model arriving later in the year.



LG plasma may not be world class performance, but they aren't world class prices either.

 

[Mize]

If it's works as it should, there shouldn't be any lag. I'm guessing it depends on the AVReceiver. I'll try my Pioneer when my basements finished and I can finally hook up my surround sound again. I've already tested with my PS3 hooked up directly to my TV.

Howz about a link to some lag tests?

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Howz about a link to some lag tests?

http://www.dday.it/redazione/220/DDay-The-Best-Gaming-TV-Test.html#pagina-2

I think this was previously posted in some thread here.

 

[djskribbles]

Here's my results for my LG 55LH90. link

I used a very old LCD monitor as I don't have a CRT lying around, but the LCD monitor is a very old TN panel so it probably has little or no lag. I didn't use game mode (I had it in ISF/Expert 1 mode) and local dimming was on (might be a little lower with it off).

That thread also has results for other LCD's and here's another thread at AVSForum with more results (mainly plasmas).