Business Approach Comparison Sony PS4 and Microsoft Xbox

[patsu]

The PS3 was inferior in its memory design most particularly. Having the split pools that required lots of data copying, having a memory-heavy operating system that required reservations in both pools.. not pretty.

NUMA is used in supercomputers for better performance/cost ratio, but the memory size has to be big enough. In addition, the HPC developers have to optimize their applications for speed anyway; throwing in NUMA is just one more tool for them.

It looks like in gaming, developers place more weight on easier cross-platform development these days. Will have to see how well Xbox One balance these 2 needs.

i'd venture thre split pools were not the problem per se. the problem was the substandard gpu.

i would have liked if ms went with split pools, and rather than edram, added 50% more shaders to xenos.

i think this would have led to a console inarguablly more powerful than ps3, rather than essentially tied as we ended up.

xenos was just very advanced, so it was able to do more in less area than rsx, which saved ms butt.

Not necessarily the GPU or even the split pool. The limited memory size is likely PS3's biggest problem.

 

[BRiT]

It's both funny and sad they will find a way to break a peripheral you will only touch when setting it up.

Perhaps they figure some of the matching controllers or peripherals will be accidently thrown and hit the PSEye... Though given the choice, I'd rather the controllers hit the PSEye than my large-screen TV.

 

[Strange]

All jokes aside, all peripherals included inside consoles are also sold separately.

Not many people thought about it but the wii sensor bar was also sold separately if you really need it.
I understand the confusion with the disclaimer, but reading too much into it as "PSEYE will not be bundled" I feel is a bit far fetched.

I'm still sticking to it being bundled for very little cost and the fact that all DS4s having a light sensor bar tells me that it will most likely be bundled.
Also noting the fact that a PSEye should be very very cheap for Sony to produce and bundle inside every PS4.

 

[jonabbey]

NUMA is used in supercomputers for better performance/cost ratio, but the memory size has to be big enough. In addition, the HPC developers have to optimize their applications for speed anyway; throwing in NUMA is just one more tool for them.

It looks like in gaming, developers place more weight on easier cross-platform development these days. Will have to see how well Xbox One balance these 2 needs.

Not necessarily the GPU or even the split pool. The limited memory size is likely PS3's biggest problem.

Well, as far as I understand it, games on PS3 have to stream data from disc into the XDR memory, then copy it into the GDDR3, increasing the overall memory usage at least by the amount of that buffer in XDR. Needing to copy the frame buffer from GDDR3 back to XDR for SPU image processing likewise doubles the memory used, with a copy in both pools. Just one more thing that puts pressure on the PS3's available memory.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Also noting the fact that a PSEye should be very very cheap for Sony to produce and bundle inside every PS4.

I wouldn't say very cheap. $5 over 100 million consoles is $500 million. $10 would be a billion bucks. If Sony decide that investment when lead to suitable returns, they may decide to save themselves hundreds of millions. They clearly chose that route with PS3, much to EyeToy's detriment. I don't think Sony will do that, and I do expect the camera to be bundled, but I'm no longer certain.

 

[patsu]

Well, as far as I understand it, games on PS3 have to stream data from disc into the XDR memory, then copy it into the GDDR3, increasing the overall memory usage at least by the amount of that buffer in XDR. Needing to copy the frame buffer from GDDR3 back to XDR for SPU image processing likewise doubles the memory used, with a copy in both pools. Just one more thing that puts pressure on the PS3's available memory.

Yes. The memory has to be bigger. In PS3's case, the 2 memory pools are also not different enough (in performance term).

 

[Cyan]

Still it's officially saying the camera is sold separately. That'd be a truly stupid move by Sony IMO. EyeToy and PSEye never realised their potential, and another optional peripheral will consign PlayStation 4 Camera to the same fate. Edit: Oh, you mean the camera is sold separately to the DS4 and so that needs to be mentioned. Factoring in the below...

The reason why no-one else saw it is because the YT video is 2:30 and doesn't feature the disclaimer. It's not on the UK official PlayStation website either. It's only the US video that has this disclaimer added.

...I guess this is the case the crazy sue-happy USA getting an added disclaimer to cover the mind-numbingly obvious which some *%&£%~@ would still try and sue over when they don't a camera when they buy a DS4. Although the disclaimer doesn't say you'll need a PS4 console, sold separately, so that doesn't actually hold water. The video implies features that DS4 enables. It only enables this with the console and camera. The vid makes mention that you need to buy the camera separately, but not the console. If the camera comes with the console, why mention it?

Fully agreed. I think that if Sony included the PS Eye with the PS4 it would be a great move, all developers would support it and one of their gadgets would finally succeed even if only a small percentage of games used it.

I am not sure this is what will happen, I am almost entirely sure the PlayStation Eye will be bundled with every PS4.

Without it Sony kind of void some of the features of the PS Eye that Sony listed in the videos, like split screen swaps & so on.

On a different note, Microsoft Xbox One will check if people are watching ads.

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-06-02-xbox-one-checking-if-youre-watching-ads-less-gee-whiz-more-wtf

 

[BRiT]

Oh FFS, not that ancient patent surfacing again... Anything but spending any more time than needed on that.

 

[Cyan]

On a different note then, I think Sony Play Station 4 and Microsoft Xbox One are going to sell out at launch. I am still wondering what will happen next...

Picking a winner in different markets can be tricky because we don't know how receptive those markets will be to either one or even how the market has changed over the years.

WiiU and PlayStation Vita failed to meet expectations, but PS3 and Xbox 360 are selling well.

It's very difficult to predict, but USA and UK are going to be similarly receptive to both consoles. The rest of Europe... I think PS4 is going to triumph in sales.

I think USA is more likely to be Xbox territory again, UK... it depends, the rest of Europe once core gamers buy the PS4, mainstream public are going to buy it and sweep the board on sales.

The recession might play a role, but it's not the only indicative of course.

Other questions are... do people want a dedicated gaming console or more of an entertainment device? Will Kinect and PlayStation Eye play a role?

 

[temesgen]

On a different note then, I think Sony Play Station 4 and Microsoft Xbox One are going to sell out at launch. I am still wondering what will happen next...

Picking a winner in different markets can be tricky because we don't know how receptive those markets will be to either one or even how the market has changed over the years.

WiiU and PlayStation Vita failed to meet expectations, but PS3 and Xbox 360 are selling well.

It's very difficult to predict, but USA and UK are going to be similarly receptive to both consoles. The rest of Europe... I think PS4 is going to triumph in sales.

I think USA is more likely to be Xbox territory again, UK... it depends, the rest of Europe once core gamers buy the PS4, mainstream public are going to buy it and sweep the board on sales.

The recession might play a role, but it's not the only indicative of course.

Other questions are... do people want a dedicated gaming console or more of an entertainment device? Will Kinect and PlayStation Eye play a role?

Presently many buy the 360 because that is what their friends have. So I think you are right but IMO there is a chance that Xbox Live multiplier affect is somewhat mitigated by some of the core moving to the machine with the better specs. If that happens all bets are off.

 

[Cyan]

Presently many buy the 360 because that is what their friends have. So I think you are right but IMO there is a chance that Xbox Live multiplier affect is somewhat mitigated by some of the core moving to the machine with the better specs. If that happens all bets are off.

Yes, the market is very unpredictable. We are used to see people behaving in the way we expect, some kind of bee hive mentality, in some places.

Like... the mainstream public buying the console that is popular (this is very common behaviour in the UK and the rest of Europe, for instance).

Talking of which... http://metro.co.uk/2013/06/03/asda-xbox-one-is-our-fastest-selling-pre-order-console-3826800/

 

[Johnny Awesome]

I think that launch titles might make a difference this time around.

Forza 5 as a launch title is a pretty big deal for hardcore racing fans, for instance.

Most gamers would rather have Kinect than PSEye, so Sony really needs to show the power of the system in a hurry if they want to beat MS.

What I mean by this is that most polls are 75% PS4 and 25% X1 mainly on the assumption that the PS4 is more powerful than the X1. If that isn't apparent in the games early on, people will likely just buy what they did last generation.

Of course, I'm assuming that MS actually has games and that E3 will prove that.

 

[Bagel seed]

Not mainly on power. Just gamers reactions based off of their TV focused presentation.

 

[Cyan]

I think that launch titles might make a difference this time around.

Forza 5 as a launch title is a pretty big deal for hardcore racing fans, for instance.

Most gamers would rather have Kinect than PSEye, so Sony really needs to show the power of the system in a hurry if they want to beat MS.

What I mean by this is that most polls are 75% PS4 and 25% X1 mainly on the assumption that the PS4 is more powerful than the X1. If that isn't apparent in the games early on, people will likely just buy what they did last generation.

Of course, I'm assuming that MS actually has games and that E3 will prove that.

Sony have been nimble and are doing a great job with the console in that sense, imho. Sony's main issue, in my opinion, is that now they should try to convince the casual crowd to buy their console.

Considering that Xbox One has a lot of catch up to do in terms of development tools, indie games strategy, used games market, looser online strategies, games and so on, Sony should have some advantage there.

More news:

Xbox One could feature native support for Miracast technology. This means having video passing through Wi-Fi.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/3/4391124/windows-8-1-miracast-display-support-hotspot-tethering

 

[Gradthrawn]

Still it's officially saying the camera is sold separately. That'd be a truly stupid move by Sony IMO. EyeToy and PSEye never realised their potential, and another optional peripheral will consign PlayStation 4 Camera to the same fate.

Except this time the motion/camera system will (or should) actually be available at launch. The Playstation Eye launched a full year after the launch of the PS3 and the EyeToy came out three years after the launch of the PS2. Even if its not bundled, it stands a better chance of broader adoption for that reason alone. Particularly if there's strong marketing behind it, along with solid first party examples of how to use it and perhaps just as importantly, robust developer libraries and tools.

Fully agreed. I think that if Sony included the PS Eye with the PS4 it would be a great move, all developers would support it and one of their gadgets would finally succeed even if only a small percentage of games used it.

What are you basing all developer's supporting it on? Regardless of whether its bundled or not I don't think we even know if SCE is providing the same level of libraries with the PS4 SDK (for voice recognition, body tracking, skeletal tracking, etc) for the Eye as MS has, and will again, for Kinect and Kinect 2. Without the same type of libraries and tools (tailored to the PS4 Eye's specs) you'll likely have fewer developers willing to invest more of their resources into developing their own to make use of the peripheral (regardless of whether its bundled or not, although bundling would help make a stronger business case).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Except this time the motion/camera system will (or should) actually be available at launch. The Playstation Eye launched a full year after the launch of the PS3 and the EyeToy came out three years after the launch of the PS2. Even if its not bundled, it stands a better chance of broader adoption for that reason alone. Particularly if there's strong marketing behind it, along with solid first party examples of how to use it and perhaps just as importantly, robust developer libraries and tools.

If suitably backed and showing a compelling reason to own, I agree.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Not mainly on power. Just gamers reactions based off of their TV focused presentation.

Both issues seem important right now, but if MS shows up with games at E3 all the concern about "tv, tv, tv..." will go away pretty quick and only the power difference will remain.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Sony have been nimble and are doing a great job with the console in that sense, imho. Sony's main issue, in my opinion, is that now they should try to convince the casual crowd to buy their console.

Considering that Xbox One has a lot of catch up to do in terms of development tools, indie games strategy, used games market, looser online strategies, games and so on, Sony should have some advantage there.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/3/4391124/windows-8-1-miracast-display-support-hotspot-tethering

Development tools catch-up is a rumor and will happen regardless, indie games strategy is irrelevant to almost everyone, the used game stuff is going to be the same with Sony as MS and I even think Sony might have to charge for online this time around.

How are perceptions going to change if Sony comes out charging for used games and online gaming?

Speculation, I know, but Sony has said very little about any of that and people are assuming that they will be "better" than MS on those issues, but it's hardly a given really, considering that Sony lost $5 billion last generation.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Both issues seem important right now, but if MS shows up with games at E3 all the concern about "tv, tv, tv..." will go away pretty quick and only the power difference will remain.

And the power difference, will people see it at E3, or does that get glossed over because the games look the same?

 

[joker454]

More news:

Xbox One could feature native support for Miracast technology. This means having video passing through Wi-Fi.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/3/4391124/windows-8-1-miracast-display-support-hotspot-tethering

Finally! Now they need to take the next step for cars, where you just buy a dumb display in the car and your laptop, phone or whatever just gets mirrored to it and you control it all from there. That's another market they could completely own as Apple has totally missed it. Hopefully in the not too distance future the idea of buying a "car radio" will come to an end and they will just be dumb displays that our phones, tablets and laptops just project onto. I like how all the pieces are coming together, but crickey it's taken a long time.