Business Approach Comparison Sony PS4 and Microsoft Xbox

[Cyan]

What are you basing all developer's supporting it on? Regardless of whether its bundled or not I don't think we even know if SCE is providing the same level of libraries with the PS4 SDK (for voice recognition, body tracking, skeletal tracking, etc) for the Eye as MS has, and will again, for Kinect and Kinect 2. Without the same type of libraries and tools (tailored to the PS4 Eye's specs) you'll likely have fewer developers willing to invest more of their resources into developing their own to make use of the peripheral (regardless of whether its bundled or not, although bundling would help make a stronger business case).

The idea of including PlayStation Eye is really good and I am basing it upon the success of Kinect on the Xbox 360 if it was bundled with the console 'cos Microsoft spent millions supporting the gadget.

If Sony decided to go with a bundled PS Eye by default there would be a lot of interactions and developers would design a lot of cool things for the camera because there will be a lot of people using it.

Many of these things would be simple interactions, most probably, but it can be SO fun!

It's their choice, of course, but if they don't bundle PS Eye with every PS4 the camera would suck and there would be no point on spending a single dime on marketing for it.

Development tools catch-up is a rumor and will happen regardless, indie games strategy is irrelevant to almost everyone, the used game stuff is going to be the same with Sony as MS and I even think Sony might have to charge for online this time around.

How are perceptions going to change if Sony comes out charging for used games and online gaming?

Speculation, I know, but Sony has said very little about any of that and people are assuming that they will be "better" than MS on those issues, but it's hardly a given really, considering that Sony lost $5 billion last generation.

Indie developers are doing a lot of great things, and Don Mattrick began as an indie developer himself. He said that a few days ago.

http://www.oxm.co.uk/55274/xbox-one...ty-ward-man/?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=OXM-General-RSS

Sony allegedly said that mandatory online is not an option for them and they aren't considering DRM on used games. I just wonder if PSN will continue to be free though.

In that sense Sony are doing a much better job than Microsoft.

Not that I am writing the Xbox One off. How could I do that? The Xbox was my first console ever, I have Windows 8 and I am very happy with it, I use Bing as my default search engine, IE 10 is my favourite web browser -I tried others for a long time (Opera is my second favourite, then Firefox) and now it is my fav-, my Xbox 360 has been the console I played the most this generation. I am planning on buying a Surface tablet. I used Microsoft Office for years now.

I am going to buy the Xbox One at launch, etc etc etc.

Meanwhile, as a consumer, I haven't been keeping count tbh, but I know for sure I've spent a lot of money on Microsoft products over the years, including various Windows OS’s and software for the PC.

I believe that Microsoft Xbox One probably has a great future, one that involves becoming a leader in the console business -along with the PS4, which I think is going to win the next generation btw- and servers technology.

Whether that future says if those DRM measures can affect the Xbox One depends on the consumers, but when it comes to that Sony have presented a much better image, and that's really it.

-Cose

 

[joker454]

Oh? Have they fixed the A2DP driver then? When I last tested it, it had a spike at 11khz and 16.5khz which made it impossible for me to listen to it for more than a couple of minutes. Took me an age to convince them there was even a problem. Although, this was on the CE kernel, the Minwin driver might not have the same problem.

I didn't notice any such issue, although at those frequencies maybe only certain people can hear it? Then again I can hear the high pitch whines from crt tv's or those animal control audio thingies. It's worked really well so far and sounds much better than typical Bluetooth audio which sounded kinda crappy.

 

[wco81]

I agree the car stereo aftermarket is dead.

So it's left to the car OEMs and they're not going to stop bundling car stereos and other electronics. Yes the built-in GPS units are a ripoff (they will also charge you a couple of hundred to update maps) but often cars in certain colors are only available with NAV. Or you want other features like Bluetooth and HID, you have to get the package with NAV.

They're going to play the same games with stereos and mobile electronics. They will bundle some way to get Internet in your car, even though you already have a smart phone.

The mirroring of the screen doesn't sound like a bad idea but I think they want to discourage you from fiddling with electronics while driving, not encouraging it. So a lot of jurisdictions will probably ticket you for playing around with the screen on your dash, like they do when they catch people playing with their phones in the cars.

 

[Cjail]

So better sound and video is the great justification for hiking the price by 50% at launch? Relating this back to the inclusion of media features and Kinect with the Xbox One it is hardly comparable. Playing streaming video is 'free' whereas Kinect offers a completely new way to play games AND draws a wider audience into the system. Kinect is a money maker and a system seller both; whereas Blu Ray cost Sony time, money and sales.

I never said that PS3 costing that much in 2006 was an ideal situation and surely I am not comparing BR with Kinect.
I just said that there are advantages as well in using Blu-ray.

I bought PS3 also because it could read BR and I am quite sure I wasn't the only one, so for me BR was a system seller.

 

[Rangers]

really we are just talking about the death of the ipod connector being built into cars... I add more music to my phone than my ipod and it annoys me that my car (a 2009) only supports bluetooth telephone audio- not a2dp. When I travel I rent cars with SYNC and when i get in my phone connects voice and sound through the computer and I'm off and running. I have a Lumia 920.

I think this may be on MS' radar. IM not sure how you would miracast the WP screen as the orientation is 768X1280.

I guess this is pretty OT, but just pick up a aftermarket deck with bluetooth. I did for like 90 bucks (has no CD drive, but I was at the point were I dont care, hadn't used a CD since I got a deck with USB in). Even with CD can be found for no more than 120.

They even make nifty little adapters that plug in to the cig lighter then broadcast to your stereo via FM if you dont want to replace the whole deck. IMO doing the whole deck tho is a far cleaner solution and the way to go.

I wouldn't say very cheap. $5 over 100 million consoles is $500 million. $10 would be a billion bucks. If Sony decide that investment when lead to suitable returns, they may decide to save themselves hundreds of millions. They clearly chose that route with PS3, much to EyeToy's detriment. I don't think Sony will do that, and I do expect the camera to be bundled, but I'm no longer certain.

Yeah, imo this is a problem with Sony. They half-ass stuff. Say what you want about Kinect but MS fully backed it. Sony just kinda, half-backed Move and it died.

Now granted I think Kinect was a much more compelling tech though.

Anyways if eye toy isn't in every box, they'll half-ass it again.

OTOH, I guess it's always a reversible decision.

But kind of shopping for tablets, it kinda struck me how cameras are so ubiquitous. I didn't realize even tablets come with rear AND front facing cams now. Cameras are just kinda, expected to be there nowdays, and I think by having one in every box MS could gain a real edge.

Granted a cam in a console is a different use case than in a tablet let alone a smartphone, but it still opens up a new world of communication and interaction.

And the power difference, will people see it at E3, or does that get glossed over because the games look the same?

Too me it's the question of the upcoming gen. I see MS making all the right moves out of the gate. Kinect and the TV stuff will sell it like gangbusters and the games look to be there in force from just the leaks today, and third parties seem more in MS corner than ever. The looming possible spoiler is if that power difference becomes a big deal as the years roll on.

But the real thing will be AirPlay support via Bluetooth. That way, you can be listening on your earphones and then get into the car, start it which will turn on the car stereo, which will automatically transfer the output to the car stereo.

Then when you park and turn off the ignition, the playback continues on the headphones (if you plug them in).

I think more or less my Galaxy S 3 and $90 deck already do this lol.

I dont listen to headphones, but it automatically connects to bluetooth when I turn the car on/get in, and auto pauses when I shut ithe car off. It's smart enough to know it lost bluetooth connection and to pause. Pretty handy for trips into the gas station and the like.

I'm not sure what would happen with headphones, but I bet it's smart enough to handle them as you describe. Since already say I have music playing over the open air phone speakers and get in the car, it automatically connects to the bluetooth and transfers the output to the car stereo.

 

[dagamer]

So better sound and video is the great justification for hiking the price by 50% at launch? Relating this back to the inclusion of media features and Kinect with the Xbox One it is hardly comparable. Playing streaming video is 'free' whereas Kinect offers a completely new way to play games AND draws a wider audience into the system. Kinect is a money maker and a system seller both; whereas Blu Ray cost Sony time, money and sales.

The Blu-ray drive in the PS3 was estimated to be only $127 at launch, so it was not a "50% price hike". Regardless of whether it was included or not, the PS3 would have been more expensive than the Xbox 360 by $100 and higher than the PS2 launch price of $299. And no doubt, the only reason why many people bought the PS3 was because it was a "cheap" Blu-ray player. Even today, it's undoubtedly the best selling Blu-ray player there is. So sure, from 2006-2009 it was a real money looser, but it won them the format war.

 

[Rangers]

The Blu-ray drive in the PS3 was estimated to be only $127 at launch, so it was not a "50% price hike". Regardless of whether it was included or not, the PS3 would have been more expensive than the Xbox 360 by $100 and higher than the PS2 launch price of $299. And no doubt, the only reason why many people bought the PS3 was because it was a "cheap" Blu-ray player. Even today, it's undoubtedly the best selling Blu-ray player there is. So sure, from 2006-2009 it was a real money looser, but it won them the format war.

which was likely of pretty dubious value...

i dont have all the spreadsheets obviously, sony does, but i have a hard time imaging blu ray will even recoup the raw billions ps3 lost, never mind the market/mind share damage done by ps3's slow 599-doomed start.

if blu ray royalties was all that much of a panacea to date, i doubt sony's bottom line would constantly look so bad the past few years. and the future outlook for disc based media is entirely bleak, blu ray's best days are surely past already.

microsoft was right, they supported hddvd, but they were careful to keep their powder dry, never throwing significant dollars into a battle for a dying market (and an argument can be made HDDDVD still came pretty close to winning at points). if they had wanted to truly influence that market, they would have introduced a hdddvd playback equipped 360, and ate the dollars loss. they never did. Which showed to me how far they were willing to go in support of hddvd was not all that far.

 

[dagamer]

which was likely of pretty dubious value...

i dont have all the spreadsheets obviously, sony does, but i have a hard time imaging blu ray will even recoup the raw billions ps3 lost, never mind the market/mind share damage done by ps3's slow 599-doomed start.

if blu ray royalties was all that much of a panacea to date, i doubt sony's bottom line would constantly look so bad the past few years. and the future outlook for disc based media is entirely bleak, blu ray's best days are surely past already.

microsoft was right, they supported hddvd, but they were careful to keep their powder dry, never throwing significant dollars into a battle for a dying market (and an argument can be made HDDDVD still came pretty close to winning at points). if they had wanted to truly influence that market, they would have introduced a hdddvd playback equipped 360, and ate the dollars loss. they never did. Which showed to me how far they were willing to go in support of hddvd was not all that far.

I didn't say it made them money in the end, they just got the result they wanted. As far as HD-DVD goes, Blu-ray has 20GB more usable space, so that sounds good to me.

 

[patsu]

I guess this is pretty OT, but just pick up a aftermarket deck with bluetooth. I did for like 90 bucks (has no CD drive, but I was at the point were I dont care, hadn't used a CD since I got a deck with USB in). Even with CD can be found for no more than 120.

They even make nifty little adapters that plug in to the cig lighter then broadcast to your stereo via FM if you dont want to replace the whole deck. IMO doing the whole deck tho is a far cleaner solution and the way to go.



Yeah, imo this is a problem with Sony. They half-ass stuff. Say what you want about Kinect but MS fully backed it. Sony just kinda, half-backed Move and it died.

Now granted I think Kinect was a much more compelling tech though.

Anyways if eye toy isn't in every box, they'll half-ass it again.

OTOH, I guess it's always a reversible decision.

But kind of shopping for tablets, it kinda struck me how cameras are so ubiquitous. I didn't realize even tablets come with rear AND front facing cams now. Cameras are just kinda, expected to be there nowdays, and I think by having one in every box MS could gain a real edge.

Granted a cam in a console is a different use case than in a tablet let alone a smartphone, but it still opens up a new world of communication and interaction.



Too me it's the question of the upcoming gen. I see MS making all the right moves out of the gate. Kinect and the TV stuff will sell it like gangbusters and the games look to be there in force from just the leaks today, and third parties seem more in MS corner than ever. The looming possible spoiler is if that power difference becomes a big deal as the years roll on.



I think more or less my Galaxy S 3 and $90 deck already do this lol.

I dont listen to headphones, but it automatically connects to bluetooth when I turn the car on/get in, and auto pauses when I shut ithe car off. It's smart enough to know it lost bluetooth connection and to pause. Pretty handy for trips into the gas station and the like.

I'm not sure what would happen with headphones, but I bet it's smart enough to handle them as you describe. Since already say I have music playing over the open air phone speakers and get in the car, it automatically connects to the bluetooth and transfers the output to the car stereo.

The FM adapter is too noisy and unreliable in many cities. It's difficult to find a clean band to use when you drive around town. I tested 3 and gave up.

The A2DP stuff is good, but implementation wise, they don't necessarily play well together. I tested 7 systems. They would work in the simple use cases, but when I switch between different audio apps too quickly or too frequently, they got confused. Sometimes, the expensive car kits are just repackaged and modified OEM ones (e.g., compared to the OEM unit, the BMW one will try harder to keep the existing audio routes, so much so that under some conditions, it doesn't want to auto-switch to answer an incoming call). Apple's media engine seem to do extra work to prevent or reduce these fail cases.

The Bluetooth stuff can also do telemetry or cars. I think Apple push those to Wifi and specialize Bluetooth for entertainment when in cars.

I tried Vita as an in-car entertainment center too. Was able to pair it with the car successfully. But the music disappeared.

 

[joker454]

The A2DP stuff is good, but implementation wise, they don't necessarily play well together. I tested 7 systems. They would work in the simple use cases, but when I switch between different audio apps too quickly or too frequently, they got confused.

Is it possible Apple's support of a2dp on their phones is the problem? I ask because I didn't have the issue you had, I can change music apps as much as I want and it's never an issue, the connection is always 100% solid. Apple tends to lag behind on tech lately so maybe their a2dp support is only half there compared to what the competition offers. It just seems very unlikely that all 7 units you tried were the issue, seems more like it would be your phone.

 

[patsu]

Is it possible Apple's support of a2dp on their phones is the problem? I ask because I didn't have the issue you had, I can change music apps as much as I want and it's never an issue, the connection is always 100% solid. Apple tends to lag behind on tech lately so maybe their a2dp support is only half there compared to what the competition offers. It just seems very unlikely that all 7 units you tried were the issue, seems more like it would be your phone.

Nope. Not all 7 have the same issues. They have different quirks. Some units would send extra commands when you switch channel, some have noise, etc.

I think the Apple device just handles blending the audio, authorization, plus switching between A2DP, wired, and AirPlay seamlessly. It's one level up. The WWDC sessions have some details.

EDIT: e.g., *if* Apple add Miracast, it will be transparent to the existing apps. They can switch between different or even multiple devices together regardless of the delivery mechanism.

I was testing the Bluetooth part when I was in the market for one. Went with a Lexus.

 

[joker454]

Nope. Not all 7 have the same issues. They have different quirks. Some units would send extra commands when you switch channel, some have noise, etc.

I think the Apple device just handles blending the audio, authorization, plus switching between A2DP, wired, and AirPlay seamlessly. It's one level up. The WWDC sessions have some details.

EDIT: e.g., *if* Apple add Miracast, it will be transparent to the existing apps. They can switch between different or even multiple devices together regardless of the delivery mechanism.

I was testing the Bluetooth part when I was in the market for one. Went with a Lexus.

Interesting. Ok well I use the Kenwood DNX6990HD unit, it's a bit older now but I have no issues with it, no disconnects, no noise, nothing at all. It uses the 'Parrot' Bluetooth hardware which I've heard is better, maybe that's why I've had no issues with it's a2dp and my Lumia 920. Maybe give that one a shot.

 

[patsu]

The use cases I tested cover jumping between different Bluetooth profiles. e.g., A2DP, HFP, ...

The noise may come from the differences between these profiles. e.g., Hands free phone communication does not support high quality audio. I remember 1-2 units would have a little noise when it's switched under certain conditions. I was testing switching between the phone's internal speaker, assorted headsets, and the carkits under different use cases. They have different performance characteristics and nuances. The device was playing music, running GPS apps, and answering/switching incoming calls between the routes at the same time. I also tried hot plugging/unplugging the devices to see if the routes were switched predictably (in case I need to take private calls in the car while everything is happening).

EDIT: Checked the net quickly. DNX6990HD doesn't seem to take calls. It's "only" a player and nav device, not a full carkit.

 

[joker454]

EDIT: Checked the net quickly. DNX6990HD doesn't seem to take calls. It's "only" a player and nav device, not a full carkit.

It does take calls as well.

 

[wco81]

Hmm, how bullet-proof is Miracast?

There's been talk of screencasting and sending wireless video for years now. Remember wireless HDMI? Where are the products?

Remember UWB? Again, where are the products?

Or how about DNLA not being consistent or so interoperable among different brands or even models?

That said, I'm not sure why Apple doesn't license AirPlay video like they have AirPlay audio. It's not like AppleTV is a big money maker (though Cook revealed last week that they'd sold almost 14 million, including half in the last year).

My suspicion is that interoperability of video especially has to be integrated well. AppleTV uses the same family of SOCs, probably the same Wifi silicon, same networking stack, etc.

If they licensed out AirPlay video, it may not be so robust with third-party products.

 

[wco81]

This is interesting:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/...od-for-more-exclusive-xbox-one-video-content/

I wonder what kind of production budget the Halo series has, given Spielberg's involvement. Is it greater than say what Netflix is spending on House of Cards or Arrested Development?

Is MS or Netflix or any tech company prepared to fund say something like Game of Thrones (which probably costs several million an episode)? It seems on surface to have only nerd-appeal but GoT obviously has attracted a much broader group of viewers, willing to pay for HBO.

Halo obviously appeals to the core gamer but if they really want to go beyond the core gamer demographic, they can't limit exclusive TV content to sci-fi, fantasy stuff.

 

[patsu]

It does take calls as well.

I stand corrected. Reading the reviews, it does sound like a solid system.

I stress tested 2 of Parrot's units sold under different brands. The brand owners tweaked the base OEM unit for their purposes. In one of the units, sticky route is a problem (It wouldn't switch away after a number of quick attempts). The good thing is the connection stays strong even under extreme conditions (e.g., dealing with cheaper headsets). It seems like a design decision. Then there are other factors associated with the speed of switching profiles (and associated hardware), profile limitations, or Bluetooth wireless performance. That was around 2010.

In any case, there are performance differences in these Bluetooth carkits. Ranger's $90 deck may not work as well as the $500 - $1000 ones.

My suspicion is that interoperability of video especially has to be integrated well. AppleTV uses the same family of SOCs, probably the same Wifi silicon, same networking stack, etc.

If they licensed out AirPlay video, it may not be so robust with third-party products.

If people start making crappy devices, then they may stress the edge cases ('specially pertaining to unreliable wireless connections). It would be ok for most use cases if the users are not picky. ;-)

Once the standard evolves, then I guess we will see what gets left behind as usual. In the beginning, it would be the honeymoon period.

 

[bkilian]

The Epic Meal Time guys weigh in on the console war...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nE6KV2BvNw

 

[dagamer]

Hmm, how bullet-proof is Miracast?

There's been talk of screencasting and sending wireless video for years now. Remember wireless HDMI? Where are the products?

Remember UWB? Again, where are the products?

Or how about DNLA not being consistent or so interoperable among different brands or even models?

That said, I'm not sure why Apple doesn't license AirPlay video like they have AirPlay audio. It's not like AppleTV is a big money maker (though Cook revealed last week that they'd sold almost 14 million, including half in the last year).

My suspicion is that interoperability of video especially has to be integrated well. AppleTV uses the same family of SOCs, probably the same Wifi silicon, same networking stack, etc.

If they licensed out AirPlay video, it may not be so robust with third-party products.

Considering both Google and Microsoft support it, it's pretty much a de facto standard at this point.

 

[wco81]

If it's a de facto standard, where are the products?

It's Wifi only or does it also support Bluetooth? I guess Bluetooth won't do for high-quality video but I believe BT 4.0 is very power-efficient.