Blu-ray and ps3.

[jvd]

I'm very tired of fmv. I also know how much space it takes for a such a wastefull thing. If gta3 is said to use most of the discs for textures then i really don't know what to say . mabye in the future they will use better textures so the game looks much better.

 

[zidane1strife]

All, I know is this, I've seen psone model gifs that take nearly half a meg... I dunno how faithfull that format is to the orig, but current systems feature models with several orders of magnitude the complexity of both geom/textures and animations.

Next gen. perf. will likely exceed current perf. by more than two orders of magnitude... and we're moving to far higher resolutions.... nuff said.

 

[Clashman]

You guys are all addressing this as if it wouldn't be possible to put games on more than one disc. People seemed plenty comfortable with doing this in the 3do, PS1, Saturn days, and the sizes of games were allowed to increase plenty. Games like Phantasmagoria took up over 4 gigabytes before anyone even thought of putting a game on DVD. Switching discs once or maybe twice in a game, which is by far the most they are ever likely to use in the next generation with DVD, is not a big hassle. Furthermore, you assume that Sony really has a desire to push blue-ray into the pricepoint a PS3 would go for, instead of reaping high margins on what they have now, and to do this on a console hardware that will likely not be profitable to manufacture in and of itself for several years after the system debuts, and with a system that has ZERO market presence, which is what blue ray has now. Playing DVD's on PS2 was a selling point because DVDs were visible and desireable. Blue ray, at present, has next to none of that allure with the general public, as they aren't seeing movies come out with extra stuff of Blue-ray over DVD. It just plain-old won't have that same effect on the psyche, and so if it is at all more expensive I doubt they'll include it.

 

[zidane1strife]

Switching discs once or maybe twice in a game, which is by far the most they are ever likely to use in the next generation with DVD, is not a big hassle.

A game like gran turismo in the next-gen could very well end up filling a double layered blu-ray(50GB)...

100s of models, dozens of environs, at 10-100X today's level of detail.

 

[Clashman]

All I can say is that I think you're seriously overestimating the likely amount of complexity in future games. If games were going to get that big we'd likely already be seeing foreshadowing of them on the PC, which despite what was mentioned earlier is more likely to see larger games crop up due to the vast amounts of Hard drive space available on PCs as opposed to consoles. You can copy a 6 gig game to your hard drive and it doesn't matter if it takes 10 CDs. Does anyone remember installing games from floppys? The fact of the matter is it takes incredible amounts of time and energy to fill up what is already available, and I highly doubt that that is going to increase 10-fold in the next generation. You're making these predictions by comparing the smallest games of the PS1 generation to the largest games of the current one. Why not do a more apples to apples comparison? Even the original Gran Turismo for PS1 took up two CDs, and so the space it took up is likely between 800 and 1300 megs. Not to mention other PC games at the time such as Gabriel Knight 2, the Pandora Directive, and Phantasmagoria which took up every bit as much space as GT3. This is a far cry from 10 fold increases you're talking about per generation. Given the gap between GT and GT3, you could probably fit a next gen GT on 2, maybe Dual layered, single sided DVD's.

 

[marconelly!]

Show me a game that has no fmv that takes up more than a disc.

MGS2: Substance fills more than 4.7GB (distributed on a dual layer DVD) and pretty much has no FMVs (well some very minor ones)

I think it's also music in GTA3 that takes so much space, not just the models and textures.

 

[Fafalada]

If games were going to get that big we'd likely already be seeing foreshadowing of them on the PC

Is that why the largest PC games nowadays are console ports? 8)

And please don't bring up the likes of Phantasmogoria - the game was a freaking live action Dragon's Lair which would easily be 1/4 the size or less if it was put on single disc.
Not to mention if it was made today it'd probably take 7dvd's, not cds.

 

[nonamer]

Look's like this is still a hot issue... Good thing I bumped it

*snip*

This may seem odd to bump this old thread to clear up a misconception but regardlessly: Holographic is NOT FMD (fluorescent multilayer disc). It's a totally new technology (actually it's really old, but new in the sense of a consumer product). Here's some links to help clear things up:

http://www.cnet.com/techtrends/0-60...st.sr.6014-8-20013825-5.txt.6014-8-20013825-1

http://www.howstuffworks.com/holographic-memory.htm

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/f...w.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/443/ashley.html (this one is really technical, but it's really explanative, if you can understand it )

Nobody said it was the same. The point is that like FMD the technology is still way experimental so you won't be seeing it anytime soon let alone PS3

Blue laser based disc players with be the next format not FMD or holographic-memory. Maybe sometime after 2010 we'll see FMD or something like it...

You did. Anyhow, the articles did suggest a commercial product is viable as early as 2004. Perhaps not early enough to be in the PS3 (at least not economically), but the potential is there. IMO, holographic (and maybe FMD) will come shortly after Bluray and relatively easily overcome all challenging storage technology.

EDIT: Fixed some sloppy errors.

 

[PC-Engine]

Has anyone considered the development costs of filling a 25GB disk?????

 

[Vince]

Has anyone considered the development costs of filling a 25GB disk?????

You're kidding right? SCEE's Team Soho already has collected >20GB of source Digital Photos alone for the design of The Getaway. Do you really think developers won't find uses for space?

It's like your (and others are) saying that giving developers too much to work with is a bad thing...

If it makes you feel any better, your one of the select few I figured wrote this before checking out your name.

PS. How's that AOD doin'? Ready to take the world by storm I hear....

 

[randycat99]

I don't want to buy a game to see 20 GB of concept pix. I want them to put together a game with highly integrated, high production value material. I'd tend to agree that the development effort required to fill 25 GB of media with good game material is still a pretty tall order. Probably just coming up with 4 GB of AAA game material will still be a tall order, unless there is a radical paradigm change in media creation/game development. Ever remember how every "good game" is always "too short"? I don't think the media capacity is the issue there...

 

[PC-Engine]

Has anyone considered the development costs of filling a 25GB disk?????

You're kidding right? SCEE's Team Soho already has collected >20GB of source Digital Photos alone for the design of The Getaway. Do you really think developers won't find uses for space?

It's like your (and others are) saying that giving developers too much to work with is a bad thing...

If it makes you feel any better, your one of the select few I figured wrote this before checking out your name.

PS. How's that AOD doin'? Ready to take the world by storm I hear....

Do you have any idea what you're talking about????

Source files are just that source files

You think the little amount of RAM in a console is going to be enough to make use of original resolution source files?

If you think The Getaway is displaying 20GBs of original resolution photographic source files then I advise you to lay off the pipe

BTW guess who's building DVD based PVR functionality into laptops??

 

[Vince]

Do you have any idea what you're talking about????

I'd like to think so...

Source files are just that source files

See, this is what I get for thinking people can dynamically think things threw on their own - appearently not.

The general idea is that if a developer can secure this quantity of real-world material [was like 50,000 digital textures] for a project in a timely fashion - they can utilize these throught a title and form libraries, et al to go from.

We were talking about storage capacity you know and how developers can secure this much material - which Team Soho obviously didn't have too much trouble in doing for The Getaway.

You think the little amount of RAM in a console is going to be enough to make use of original resolution source files?

Again, thanks for being ignorant. I in no way said anything about preformance as this thread is talking about static storage capacity that my post talks about. Your the one whose comming out of left field, bringing in factors totally unrelated the the topic at hand concerning static storage.... Your just arbitrarily adding bullshit to my post, please attempt not to.

The idea is that if a developer can attain these 50,000 odd real-world textures as reasonably as Team Soho did, they can be utilized throught the entire game in a way that was impossible before. Right now you can't even store this quantity of data, with Blu-Ray you could.

I in no way stated anythign about displaying them, I was merely talking about the increase in developer freedom in attaining and shipping utilizing more and higher resolsution textures.

If you think The Getaway is displaying 20GBs of original resolution photographic source files then I advise you to lay off the pipe

Your an idiot. Please don't try to fill in the blanks of my posts which your obviously incapable of. Thanks.

BTW guess who's building DVD based PVR functionality into laptops??

Probobly an offshoot of the Sony produced Blu-Ray player that's heading to the PC this year. Wait, didn't you state that AOD would rule the PC? And how did AOD do in the indurtry forum? I hear it was shot down hard....

 

[Panajev2001a]

BW-F101 at 2x Blu-Ray speed ( 9 MB/s ) is available right now for PC...

 

[PC-Engine]

Do you have any idea what you're talking about????

I'd like to think so...

Source files are just that source files

See, this is what I get for thinking people can dynamically think things threw on their own - appearently not.

The general idea is that if a developer can secure this quantity of real-world material [was like 50,000 digital textures] for a project in a timely fashion - they can utilize these throught a title and form libraries, et al to go from.

We were talking about storage capacity you know and how developers can secure this much material - which Team Soho obviously didn't have too much trouble in doing for The Getaway.

You think the little amount of RAM in a console is going to be enough to make use of original resolution source files?

Again, thanks for being ignorant. I in no way said anything about preformance as this thread is talking about static storage capacity that my post talks about. Your the one whose comming out of left field, bringing in factors totally unrelated the the topic at hand concerning static storage.... Your just arbitrarily adding bullshit to my post, please attempt not to.

The idea is that if a developer can attain these 50,000 odd real-world textures as reasonably as Team Soho did, they can be utilized throught the entire game in a way that was impossible before. Right now you can't even store this quantity of data, with Blu-Ray you could.

I in no way stated anythign about displaying them, I was merely talking about the increase in developer freedom in attaining and shipping utilizing more and higher resolsution textures.

If you think The Getaway is displaying 20GBs of original resolution photographic source files then I advise you to lay off the pipe

Your an idiot. Please don't try to fill in the blanks of my posts which your obviously incapable of. Thanks.

BTW guess who's building DVD based PVR functionality into laptops??

Probobly an offshoot of the Sony produced Blu-Ray player that's heading to the PC this year. Wait, didn't you state that AOD would rule the PC? And how did AOD do in the indurtry forum? I hear it was shot down hard....

LOL so now you're shifting to application???

Nobody was arguing application. Companies are finding applications for Nanotubes too and?

Oh yeah an offshoot of a $6000 drive for PC that uses $45 25GB discs...riiiiight. Sounds like a glorified MO drive to me.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it looks like DVD recorders are taking off for PVR applications in the PC space too contrary to your predictions

Doesn't look like BD is taking off despite it's 10 backers.

Hmm...let's see, a $150 DVD recorder and $5 for 5 DVDRW discs or a $6000 BD recorder and a $45 BDRW disc...tough choice.

 

[Clashman]

The example of Phantasmagoria was used to illustrate the fact that the size of the disc itself is not neccessarily a constraining factor in game development. Games in that era were perfectly content to span more than one disc, and I don't see why developers would limit their games due to the size of the disc in the next gen, even if game sizes grow at the rate you seem to think they will.

 

[zurich]

*remembers Rise of the Robots spanning 27 floppies*

 

[Panajev2001a]

$6000 drive

Do you have problem reading ? It is $3,000 and how much do those DVD-RW keep and how fast do you fill them ?

 

[zidane1strife]

Given the gap between GT and GT3, you could probably fit a next gen GT on 2, maybe Dual layered, single sided DVD's.

GT4 is likely filling up a dual-layered disc.

Say GT6 featuring 600+ 50-100kpoly cars, and 50+ tracks nearing 100+B polys(remember there's LOD.). How many dvds will that take?

GTA next, with 4-5 cities, each nigh photoreallistic, with 1000s of different npcs, dozens of hours of 5.1 music... need i say more?

How about a next-gen FF, I wan't at least a couple of hundred different enemies/npcs, and dozens of areas, not to mention STATE OF THE ART HDTV 1080p fmvs, with supah surround sound.

Late next gen. we might start seeing games that come in 2- double layered blu ray discs.

 

[Vince]

LOL so now you're shifting to application???

Nobody was arguing application. Companies are finding applications for Nanotubes too and?

Try to remember what you, yourself, earlier said that started this whole debate. I'll refresh your memory since you don't seem to be able to:

Has anyone considered the development costs of filling a 25GB disk?????

Hmm... now, looking back over what I said concerning Team Soho's ability to capture some 50,000-odd digital photos that totalled 20GB in size - does it not seem to fit into the line of argument (concerning development costs [tangible and intagible] that Team Soho have already beared much of) that you started.

I don't even know what to say to you. Well, I do but I'll refrain.