Blu-ray and ps3.

[Paul]

There's also a difference between "can fill" and "must fill." Certainly you'll agree that most games don't aspire to as huge environs as GTA or MGS, and games can get away with being plenty big and plenty good looking even in GC's smaller medium. Certainly devs CAN spill well beyond DVD capabilities, but how many will WANT to, after factoring in all other costs/concerns?

It's not a matter *if* developers will spill beyond 4.9GB. Because they will for 95% of PS3 games. I fail to see how you think that your average ps3 game, with the thousands of high res textures, way way better sounds, well up to a billion polygons will just fit on a DVD when many ps2 games come close to filling up a DVD already.

I have no idea what they'll fit. Remember, if the PS3 is also upping the power tremendously, isn't it also going to be increasing its efficiency by a lot as well? We don't yet know how well the beast will handle texturing et al, it may be that the overall effect doesn't kick up the file sizes tremendously. This is yet ANOTHER thing we won't know enough about for quite some time.

Bigger textures, more polygons, better sound, bigger games = the need to go beyond a DVD. There are very few that argue this point.

I don't think ever started out as high, nor its medium as high as we're seeing right now. I also don't think it dropped down to negligence levels just two years afterward. (I haven't come across any all-encompassing data charts for DVD price history, but there's a decent article here to at least get an overview.) The lowest priced DVD players were $500 in '97 and just got under $200 in '99? Blu Ray players are at WHAT right now? I certainly think BR will go WAYYYYY down, but it remains to be seen whether it will hit consumer-grade levels by the time the PS3 is in production.

Blu-ray is only expensive because sony can infact get away with it. There is no competition out there, if someone WANTS a blu-ray player now they have no choice but to pay the outrageous price issued by the select few that have the players out on the market.

I bring you this quote from Sony, they agree with me.

"Sony also sees the blue-laser technology as key to next-generation game machines, whose advanced graphics will require huge amounts of storage capacity, a spokesman said"

quote from Reuters, 03.31.03, 2:33 AM ET

I'm just not willing to think Sony will paint themselves into a corner with it should Blu Ray still be quite an issue price-wise. I'm certainly they WANT it to be a part, but I'm also certain they're not going to place all bets on it HAVING to be, nor that they would be willing to take immense losses to assure it being there.

You still havent listed any other mediums that can be used for PS3, as DVD's won't cut it.

Oh and not to mention, blu-ray can function as a HDD becuase it's rewriteable thus killing two birds with one stone.

 

[Fafalada]

That would set-up a basic GUI ( well, a nice slick looking one ) and would recognize the ethernet ( required... it would need broadband ) and the HW.Then you would pop in your new 50 GB Re-Writable Blu-Ray disc given in the new PlayStation 3 Linux kit and you would format it and install set-up data: this would create '/' and 'swap' directories.
The set-up starts and you are guided through it and once you finished configuring the OS in the set-up ( normal Linux Install ) it would download all the packages from the net and install them.

I wouldn't expect users to be masochistics to want to actually go through a OS setup on a fixed system.
Hell, vast majority of PCs out there is sold with preinstalled OS, and you'd torture console users with installers?

Granted M$ has worked hard for past 8 years establishing the paradigm of "OS installation being something fun" and there were people reinstalling their windows on monthly basis (poor souls), but nonetheless I would hope we're long past that era by now, and especially on a fixed platform, we'd be seeing convenience rather then constant annoyance with the system and hw.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Hey I went through the "pain" of isntalling the PlayStation 2's Linux kit so can others

Plus a lot of people install Windows and the Linux kit for PlayStation 3 would not come with the console, but you would have to order it...

Anyways, nothing wrong with having the Re-Writable Blu-Ray disc ( 50 GB ) with Linux already installed ( with the most common packages ).

You can still modify the installation...

 

[Fafalada]

I thought you were suggesting a consumer level OS though. Eg. if PS3 will ship with an OS package... enthusiasts are another matter.

I'm sure those that wanted Linux on PS2 had no problem going through installer. But still, if they have BluRay I'd like to see a preinstalled disc even if it's just for enthusiasts yep

 

[Panajev2001a]

I thought you were suggesting a consumer level OS though. Eg. if PS3 will ship with an OS package... enthusiasts are another matter.

I'm sure those that wanted Linux on PS2 had no problem going through installer. But still, if they have BluRay I'd like to see a preinstalled disc even if it's just for enthusiasts yep

PlayStation 3 would ship with a small cool OS in a ROM like PlayStation 2 and Xbox do...

That OS could manage to record video and audio ( TV recording using Blu-Ray ), manage DVD movies, CD audio and games ( PSOne, PlayStation 2 and PlayStation 3 ) as well as connectivity with the PSP and memory card management ( for PSOne and PlayStation 2 games mainly )...

Games that need the HDD to work ( FFXI ) might not be backward compatible and a quick fix would be for Square to release a Blu-Ray version of FFXI for PlayStation 3 users...

There are currently two games that needs the HDD and it is safe to assume that both will have a new PlayStation 3 version shipping near the launch of the console itself...

 

[London Geezer]

There are currently two games that needs the HDD and it is safe to assume that both will have a new PlayStation 3 version shipping near the launch of the console itself...

which one other than ff11?
even then, i dont think rereleasing it for ps3 with no additional features or upgrades would be pretty silly...
might as well wait for ff84 (the next online-only version of the final fantasy series)...
not like i really care about ff11 cuz it aint going to be released in Europe. ever.

 

[archie4oz]

Hey I went through the "pain" of isntalling the PlayStation 2's Linux kit so can others

You call that pain!? Sheesh, I can do that blindfolded! (well practically if you're doing a blind install...)

 

[Panajev2001a]

Hey I went through the "pain" of isntalling the PlayStation 2's Linux kit so can others

You call that pain!? Sheesh, I can do that blindfolded! (well practically if you're doing a blind install...)

I call it "thing under quotes"

I know about the blind install, but I had better things to do that night than that

 

[nonamer]

I posted another post on another thread about a Bluray alternative. Here it is (perhaps this could be in PS3 instead of Bluray?):

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6317&start=48

FMD has been done before too, but we still haven't seen any products yet. That technology will be even MORE expensive than BD.

This may seem odd to bump this old thread to clear up a misconception but regardlessly: Holographic is NOT FMD (fluorescent multilayer disc). It's a totally new technology (actually it's really old, but new in the sense of a consumer product). Here's some links to help clear things up:

http://www.cnet.com/techtrends/0-60...st.sr.6014-8-20013825-5.txt.6014-8-20013825-1

http://www.howstuffworks.com/holographic-memory.htm

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/f...w.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/443/ashley.html (this one is really technical, but it's really explanative, if you can understand it )

 

[Clashman]

You keep saying that DVD is limited to 4.9 GB when you know that isn't the case. A dual-layered, dual sided DVD fills up over 16 GB, and is cheaper than blue ray. You could add a protective case and it would STILL be cheaper. Virtually no games at present come even close to filling up a full, DLDS DVD disc. And even if they did, do you think they are going to care THAT much about a technology that doesn't even have a fraction of the market penetration DVD had when PS2 was coming to fruition that they will take a significantly larger cut into what is likely to be an already expensive console. If disc-swapping were such an annoyance that it could not possibly be tolerated even to save significant amounts of money we would have seen laserdisc gaming systems take off in the 90's, because by your logic CD's were "insufficient" for PlayStation, 3DO, Saturn, etc.

*Disclaimer* This is *not* to say that PS3 won't feature Blue-Ray tech. It seems, however, that some of you people seem so dead set that it is the *only* possibility, that there is no possible way they would make us swap discs again. I think there are clearly other possibilities.

 

[jvd]

You keep saying that DVD is limited to 4.9 GB when you know that isn't the case. A dual-layered, dual sided DVD fills up over 16 GB, and is cheaper than blue ray. You could add a protective case and it would STILL be cheaper. Virtually no games at present come even close to filling up a full, DLDS DVD disc. And even if they did, do you think they are going to care THAT much about a technology that doesn't even have a fraction of the market penetration DVD had when PS2 was coming to fruition that they will take a significantly larger cut into what is likely to be an already expensive console. If disc-swapping were such an annoyance that it could not possibly be tolerated even to save significant amounts of money we would have seen laserdisc gaming systems take off in the 90's, because by your logic CD's were "insufficient" for PlayStation, 3DO, Saturn, etc.

*Disclaimer* This is *not* to say that PS3 won't feature Blue-Ray tech. It seems, however, that some of you people seem so dead set that it is the *only* possibility, that there is no possible way they would make us swap discs again. I think there are clearly other possibilities.

Hey if ps3 is all its cracked up to be they can get rid of the fmv and free up 80% of the dvd space that they take up now. That is the only reason you swap discs. Show me a game that has no fmv that takes up more than a disc.

 

[Clashman]

Hey if ps3 is all its cracked up to be they can get rid of the fmv and free up 80% of the dvd space that they take up now. That is the only reason you swap discs. Show me a game that has no fmv that takes up more than a disc.

Exactly.

 

[jvd]

Hey if ps3 is all its cracked up to be they can get rid of the fmv and free up 80% of the dvd space that they take up now. That is the only reason you swap discs. Show me a game that has no fmv that takes up more than a disc.

Exactly.

whooot someone that agrees with me .

 

[Panajev2001a]

A Dual sided, dual layered offering 16 GB ? You can get that with Blu-Ray and one single layer and one single side... much cheaper than Blu-Ray ? How do you determine that ?

For $30 you can buy a 23 GB FULLY Re-Writeable disc ( up to 4.5-9 MB/s of sustained Re-Write speed ) and with a dual layered, dual sided solution we can achieve 100 GB ( 2007 generation with 36 MB/s )... you cna do this now, in 2003 and Blu-Ray has not reached anywhere the volume production DVD has...

How much do 16 GB Re-Writeable blank DVDs rated for 9 MB/s Writing speed go for nowadays ?

Why do we need Blu-Ray ? Next Generation games ( and yes there are games that push the limits of DVD9s nowadaysd, filler/dummy data is present yes, but that is used to accelerate effective transfer speeds ) will use higher polygons counts, more and more detailed textures, even bigger levels, higher quality music and FMVs... Games' average data set will increase and the extra space will be welcomed... developers will find ways to use it... Blu-Ray also calls for Re-Writeability and this might be an interesting way of eliminating the need of a very large HDD and would add more value to the console as it could double up as a Digital VCR as well...

 

[jvd]

A Dual sided, dual layered offering 16 GB ? You can get that with Blu-Ray and one single layer and one single side... much cheaper than Blu-Ray ? How do you determine that ?

For $30 you can buy a 23 GB FULLY Re-Writeable disc ( up to 4.5-9 MB/s of sustained Re-Write speed ) and with a dual layered, dual sided solution we can achieve 100 GB ( 2007 generation with 36 MB/s )... you cna do this now, in 2003 and Blu-Ray has not reached anywhere the volume production DVD has...

How much do 16 GB Re-Writeable blank DVDs rated for 9 MB/s Writing speed go for nowadays ?

Why do we need Blu-Ray ? Next Generation games ( and yes there are games that push the limits of DVD9s nowadaysd, filler/dummy data is present yes, but that is used to accelerate effective transfer speeds ) will use higher polygons counts, more and more detailed textures, even bigger levels, higher quality music and FMVs... Games' average data set will increase and the extra space will be welcomed... developers will find ways to use it... Blu-Ray also calls for Re-Writeability and this might be an interesting way of eliminating the need of a very large HDD and would add more value to the console as it could double up as a Digital VCR as well...

Do you really see ps3 games using more textures than current top of the line pc games ? My biggest pc game that works right off the hardrive is 2 gigs big. I belive the graphics of it are much better than whats out on the ps2 for that type of game (star wars galaxies) and the game is also much larger in scope. Yet it still fits in 2gigs of hardrive space and two cd roms .

Also you don't see writeable dvds over 4.7 gbs because that is that standard to prevent copying of movies.
But i can buy a disc of 4.7 gbs for 1 dollar right now.

 

[PC-Engine]

I posted another post on another thread about a Bluray alternative. Here it is (perhaps this could be in PS3 instead of Bluray?):

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6317&start=48

FMD has been done before too, but we still haven't seen any products yet. That technology will be even MORE expensive than BD.

This may seem odd to bump this old thread to clear up a misconception but regardlessly: Holographic is NOT FMD (fluorescent multilayer disc). It's a totally new technology (actually it's really old, but new in the sense of a consumer product). Here's some links to help clear things up:

http://www.cnet.com/techtrends/0-60...st.sr.6014-8-20013825-5.txt.6014-8-20013825-1

http://www.howstuffworks.com/holographic-memory.htm

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/f...w.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/443/ashley.html (this one is really technical, but it's really explanative, if you can understand it )

Nobody said it was the same. The point is that like FMD the technology is still way experimental so you won't be seeing it anytime soon let alone PS3

Blue laser based disc players with be the next format not FMD or holographic-memory. Maybe sometime after 2010 we'll see FMD or something like it...

 

[Fafalada]

Also you don't see writeable dvds over 4.7 gbs because that is that
standard to prevent copying of movies.

Actually that's not true.
Dual layer discs can't be recorded in a drive at all - the layers are pressed together through a factory process After each of them was recorded.
Double sided recordable discs are possible, and in fact 9.4gb DVD-Rams have been available for over 2 years already. But double sided discs aren't really much more practical then multiple, with current drives.

In other words, with current DVD standard, max writeable format size is 9.4gb, along with a very costly Drive solution if you want it to read/write without manually swapping sides too.

Do you really see ps3 games using more textures than current top of the line pc games ?

It's happened before (compare 97/98 PC to console today), so why would it be so shocking if it did again?

 

[jvd]

It's happened before (compare 97/98 PC to console today), so why would it be so shocking if it did again?

so much more that they'd need over 4.7 gig worth. Or whatever the dual layer one side would be.

 

[Fafalada]

so much more that they'd need over 4.7 gig worth. Or whatever the dual layer one side would be.

If we're given more space, I believe we'll use it yes (and there are other devs here that seem to agree with me). If not, we'll make do with less somehow...
It's always been this way. I'm pretty certain that If DVD was standard media on PC, games like SW galaxies wouldn't be an exception but more like the Norm today (space wise).

 

[zidane1strife]

Hey if ps3 is all its cracked up to be they can get rid of the fmv and free up 80% of the dvd space that they take up now. That is the only reason you swap discs. Show me a game that has no fmv that takes up more than a disc.

The original GT on ps2, that is GT3 is said to have filled most of the disc, and that has almost no fmv.

Next gen. with full HDtv support, even the smallest amount of fmv will take quite a good amount of space... and a single car will likely have as much data as several dozen GT3 ones.