Another nVidia/GF FX concern?

[elchuppa]

I guess to put it in context nVidia's sales for the 3rd quarter of 2003 were 430 million dollars, ATI had sales of 266 million dollars.

edit:woops, sorry I started writing this before the posts that made this clear.

As to the reply about board costs etc. I agree with you. That's why I said competitive rather than faster. I don't care if someone can make a card that is 20% faster than what is available right now but at twice the cost. I simply won't spend more than 300$ on a graphics card (and usually not even that). Delivering a competitive product is making something run faster for cheaper.
In any case, I think that the technological fundamentals of the nv30 and the experience that nVidia is gaining from it's design should hopefully result in an interesting product (price/performance wise) by August-November. I just wish that the product was out now.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Since when does sales relate to resources ?? I'm talking about engineering teams...you also factor in overhead like employees (bigger means you need to make more money to pay your people).

 

[Doomtrooper]

ATI has 2,092 employees
Nvidia has 1,123

 

[GraphixViolence]

Wasn't one of the GF2's essentially launched/reviewed the same week it was available for purchase?

Yes, the original GeForce2 GTS was launched this way, but that was the exception rather than the rule. In fact, it launched on the exact same day as ATI's original Radeon. Coincidence?

What's the ideal length of time between preview/review and hitting the shelves? On the one hand, people complain if a card is reviewed, but takes 3-5 months to arrive in volume on the shelves. On the other hand, they complain if the company holds reviews until the product is "ready".

So what do you want? 2 weeks? 1 month? 2 months? 3 months gap?

I think the ideal way, and in fact the most common way, of handling this is to have a preview and a review. The preview should cover the key features and specs of the new chip, and go out as soon as the company can make a confident statement as to when the new product will ship in volume. This will probably be when the first mass order from the fab is made, since at that point they've basically committed to ship those chips or they've just thrown away a big pile of cash. They may not know exact clock speeds, configurations, or performance at this point, but they usually have a pretty good idea. The amount of time between the fab order and first shipments may vary, but it's probably in the 1-2 month range. Any earlier, and you're just guessing at shipping dates and performance. The previews should help readers decide if the chip is worthy of their interest and anticipation.

The reviews should come out as soon as the first samples of the final product with at least release candidate drivers are available. Specs and configs should be finalized, and performance should be tested. At this point, the only things stopping the company from shipping should be logistical issues (like building up enough inventory, getting packaging and bundles finalized, etc.), so the product should be available within a couple of weeks. The reviews should help readers decide if they are interested in buying the final product.

Do you think ATI was right in sending out the 8500 to be reviewed before the drivers even enabled SmoothVision? Should products ever be reviewed with half-baked drivers and alpha boards? OR, should reviews only be made of the final production level product?

I'm sure ATI considered this to be a calculated risk. If you ship review samples (and in the 8500's case, some final product) without having a particular feature enabled, it means you have to be confident that people will still be interested in the product based on its other merits. Personally, I waited until long after Smoothvision was enabled before deciding to get an 8500, but I'm sure there were just as many people who never even used it or cared about it. Basically, there's no right or wrong answer to this question - it's the company's call.

 

[elchuppa]

geez 2000 people? That must make profitability a little tricky.
well that is a lot of resources I have to agree.
I wonder how many engineers they each have.

 

[Nagorak]

I'm sure ATI considered this to be a calculated risk. If you ship review samples (and in the 8500's case, some final product) without having a particular feature enabled, it means you have to be confident that people will still be interested in the product based on its other merits. Personally, I waited until long after Smoothvision was enabled before deciding to get an 8500, but I'm sure there were just as many people who never even used it or cared about it. Basically, there's no right or wrong answer to this question - it's the company's call.

Your post just made me realize that I never even used Smoothvision on my R8500, or cared about it.

 

[Fuz]

ATI has 2,092 employees

Only 2 of those employees are writing drivers!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[g__day]

Hmmmmm,

With all the very prolonged waiting for GeForce FX, and the possiblity for some classic scene stealing by an adroit ATi, I wonder:

Who can tell the best joke about NVidia's mis-fortune - AND - somehow work Bitboys into the equation (like maybe there are their production control / quality assurance team

The GeForce FX does seem to be an anti-climax so far, sort of like tantric sex that gets interupted 1/2 an hour before the finale!

 

[jjayb]

Only 2 of those employees are writing drivers!

Same 2 guys moonlighting at Nvidia to finish up the nv30?

 

[epicstruggle]

I’m still waiting to hear real outrage from some nv-biased sites about this shenanigan with the geforcefx. NVIDIA has kept on implying that their products were just around the corner, so don’t buy the competition. Knowing full well they were nowhere near completion. I could be wrong but I haven’t seen any of those sites criticize NVIDIAs tactics. I think the solution would be to have a standard 1-3 months preview from launch, and 0-1 month review from launch policy. Hey I could be wrong but thats just my opinion.

later

 

[Randell]

NVIDIA has kept on implying that their products were just around the corner, so don’t buy the competition. Knowing full well they were nowhere near completion. I could be wrong but I haven’t seen any of those sites criticize NVIDIAs tactics.

what do you want them to do - tell everyone - 'hey we are going to be sooo late dont wait for the NV30 buy the R300 its a great product' ?

sorry rolls eyes coming up

 

[epicstruggle]

what do you want them to do - tell everyone - 'hey we are going to be sooo late dont wait for the NV30 buy the R300 its a great product' ?

sorry rolls eyes coming up

No, I expect them to act professionally. They dropped the ball. They more than implied that these cards were going to be ready for the christmas season. im sure many people were expecting last minute availability. At the time they were saying this, they more than likely knew that there was no snowballs chance in hell (or ontop of the geforcefx's gpu ) that they could have delivered. But i guess we shouldnt expect to much from corporations anymore.

later,

 

[martrox]

what do you want them to do - tell everyone - 'hey we are going to be sooo late dont wait for the NV30 buy the R300 its a great product' ?

sorry rolls eyes coming up

No, I expect them to act professionally. They dropped the ball. They more than implied that these cards were going to be ready for the christmas season. im sure many people were expecting last minute availability. At the time they were saying this, they more than likely knew that there was no snowballs chance in hell (or ontop of the geforcefx's gpu ) that they could have delivered. But i guess we shouldnt expect to much from corporations anymore.

later,

Oh....I guess you expect nVidia to act.......with ETHICS? History has proven nVidia has no ethics - business is war! Not to say their hardware isn't good, and sometimes even exceptional.

 

[epicstruggle]

Maybe I am naive, but I do expect businesses to act with some ethics. Hey making money is a big part, but do you want companies to not care about anything but that.

I would rather they talk with their hardware and not their PR reps. That should be the bottom line.

On a side note i have bought more nv cards than atis. i like their driver support better. but realistically ati has gotten alot better.

 

[Dave Baumann]

I guess to put it in context nVidia's sales for the 3rd quarter of 2003 were 430 million dollars, ATI had sales of 266 million dollars.

Another point to make about that it its not exactly an even comparison. Those revenue figures also include console parts, where NVIDIA and ATI have very different practices. NVIDIA is paying for entire Xbox chips to be made and selling them on to MS, so there will be high revenues there, with xxx actual profit. ATI is picking up royalties on the GC meaning lower revenue but total profit.

 

[Ostsol]

ATI has 2,092 employees
Nvidia has 1,123

ATI is in much more than the PC hardware business, though.

 

[Dave Baumann]

They also still have some board production facilities, which will be in the staffing counts.

 

[Fuz]

Ok, lets say I had the money, and they were both for sale. Which of the two would be cheaper?

 

[epicstruggle]

Ok, lets say I had the money, and they were both for sale. Which of the two would be cheaper?

if your talking companies, then ati would be cheaper.
nvidia market cap:1.7Billion
ati market cap:1.1Billion (not canadian )

i believe the market cap tells you the worth of the company based on its stock valueation times the number of outstanding shares. Right?

later

 

[Fuz]

Not surprised at all, Canadians have always been cheap bastards.