AMD: Volcanic Islands R1100/1200 (8***/9*** series) Speculation/ Rumour Thread

Discussion in 'Architecture and Products' started by Nemo, May 7, 2013.

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  1. AlexV

    AlexV Heteroscedasticitate
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    You are under the mistaken impression that this forum (in general) cares about jimbo and his crusade. We do not. This is a matter to be handled privately here, since they both are forum members, and publicly at AT, in the spirit that reading stuff on the Internet makes one entitled to all sorts of things. The basic point that this is not the place to drag personal dregs and rightful crusades in the favour of ones beloved IHV, and we would very much appreciate it if they stayed out thank you.
     
  2. Ryan Smith

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    Briefly (so that this forum isn't dragged off topic), boxleitnerb is spot on. Our testbed, equipment, and testing methodology have changed over the last 4 years, in some ways quite significantly. The results we have now are not comparable to the 2009 testbed, which is also why I made sure we have results for the 5870 and GTX 480 on our new testbed.

    If anyone would like to discuss it further, please feel free to PM me or email me.:)
     
  3. jimbo75

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    Actually I think quite a lot of people think these questions are valid, the "problem" only seems to be with the Nvidia centric guys who appear to believe that a certain reviewer should be immune to questions and criticism just because he's a member here. Remind me, was the same courtesy extended to Charlie a couple of years back? Where is he now?
     
  4. lanek

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    Forget, my post, not seen the reviews was up really early ( just back from work ).
     
    #1844 lanek, Nov 5, 2013
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  5. boxleitnerb

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    Wrong, see GTX 780 and GTX Titan. It is possible to do it more quietly with a reference design cooling solution.

    The discussion is ridiculous since some of you cannot accept that the bar for cooling solutions has been raised over time. Even for highend products. The nonsense with smarphones or tables is a non-argument.
     
  6. lanek

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    When i aggree with you. How will compare then the noise of non reference cooler ? If this is one of the bigger problem some can see on the 290x, what happend then ? 50pages of post about the noise of this cooler, then nothing ?

    Personally i dont care peoples discuss about noise, but when this come the only related point, it start to be a bit boring to imagine 50 pages writed about that.. the only result is, if you want a different cooler, wait partner cards.. Each time in a forum i see someone write about it, i look in his sig, and see he's use a MSI lightning, a DCII, or other cards who use a non reference coolers.
     
    #1846 lanek, Nov 5, 2013
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  7. jimbo75

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    Nobody says the bar hasn't been raised but to go ahead and not recommend the card simply because of noise is ridiculous. Are we really supposed to believe this is the worst card in terms of noise there has even been?
     
  8. silent_guy

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    It is indeed stunning: they spend hundreds of millions on R&D to make an excellent GPU and then cut costs by nickel-and-dining on cooling. It's a forgone conclusion that board partners will rectify this, but why? If little boutique shops can design excellent coolers, it can't be that expensive for AMD to do it themselves? Hell, why not simply subcontract the work to one if those and be done with it?
     
  9. jimbo75

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    http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/04/amd_radeon_r9_290_video_card_review/8#.UnkzcuLVW70

    http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/radeon_r9_290_review_benchmarks,13.html

    (2 dB quieter than their 480 btw)
     
  10. 3dilettante

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    The turbo functionality introduced with Kepler is where at least some of the leeway was exploited.

    The thermal diodes used to feed into typical monitoring software measure ramps on the order of signficant fractions of a second. That's a value modified by the thermal capacity of the heat sink, the imprecision of the diodes, and conduction across the GPU over a pretty long period of time.
    The instantaneous power draw and localized heating for spots in the logic can go up and down more quickly, particularly if other elements like fan speed ramp or cooler quality are constrained.

    This may not be a particularly close proxy, given its age, but for a modeled CPU in an era of lower power density, there are localized temperature ramps that happen in hundredths of a second. There's an example of a 5-10 degree ramp that is basically over in .1 seconds.
    http://www.irisa.fr/caps/people/fetis/hs.pdf

    Guard-banding at 85C would be able to absorb such spikes and buy enough time for the sensors and controllers to react.

    The probability of transients pushing parts of the chip past safety limits, or the impact of that temperature on reliability are other unknowns.
    The 290's fixed temp range is in a band that most others try to avoid.
    Possibly, the chip and substrate have been modified to better handle long periods at that range, or the controller's ability to keep the temp very constant allows fewer trips across transition temperatures for the package and underfill. These are temps where bumpgate and the RROD have come up before, so AMD would have been very aggressive about modeling it.

    The chip is still 40% bigger than a design that already was more than capable of hitting 300W.
    Power management smarts can only go so far in taking what seems to be a less efficient architecture past a competitor.
    The choice of 95C may have come as a tradeoff for reliability, binning, and performance. It seems pretty likely that power efficiency was hurt by this, since the chip will be operating at a sustained basis at high temps, and the thermal component to power draw is not linear.
     
    #1850 3dilettante, Nov 5, 2013
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  11. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    No, it's not at all ridiculous. I for one will not buy a loud GPU full stop (not after the bashing my ears took from my 4970). My current GPU is basically silent at idle and whisper quiet at load, I could probably go a little noisier but I'll never go anywhere near another truly loud GPU again.

    All aspects of a GPU's performance should be measured in a review. That includes heat, power draw, noise and performance. You can't simply downplay some factors because they don't make your favorite IHV's latest GPU look as good as you want it to. The first 2 things I look to in any review is the performance summary and the noise levels. If either is unsatisfactory then it's a no go for me.
     
  12. lanek

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    Im not even sure Partner will really be happy if AMD tell them, no, dont use your own cooler we have design one, use it..

    Thoses last years, i have recommend a lot of gpu with silent cooler, this was true the first 3 months, then it was a garbage ( the GTX460 and some 660 are a excellent example of that ).

    Anyway, im done with that, i have not use an air cooler since a long period...
     
  13. DavidGraham

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    GTX 480 and 470 suffered the same fate.
     
  14. pjbliverpool

    pjbliverpool B3D Scallywag
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    I'm just amazed you guys didn't throw a better reference cooler on this thing. Even if it cost an extra $50 per GPU surely it would have been worth it to ramp up the max clocks a bit (and stay there most of the time) and have performance clearly ahead of Titan (even for the 290) while also running quieter. I'm sure that would have allowed you to charge a $50 premium over the current prices and still come up smelling of roses in the reviews.
     
  15. Babel-17

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    I can confirm that principle as for several weeks now I've been folding on my HIS IceQ HD 7950 using a constant fan speed of 42% (about 1667 RPM). After hours of folding, my temp is at 50 degrees, centigrade. That's on my custom folding profile with the gpu clocked at 650 MHz and the core voltage at 843 MV.

    This works great as the fan is basically silent till it gets to around 50%. My card stays cool and I'm spared from noticing the fan ramping up and down. This in my Dell which sits about three feet from me, on my desk.

    Edit: I should note that my HIS has a centrifugal fan, as do the reference cards.
     
    #1855 Babel-17, Nov 5, 2013
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  16. 3dilettante

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    Another thing I'm curious about with regards to the variance in reviewers' opinions on noise is whether there is a component of manufacturing variability.
    I don't know if tolerances have tightened up in the latest generation, but I recall a fair number of standard cooler GPUs in prior generations showing marked discrepancies in temps and fan behavior that went away once new thermal compound was applied appropriately and the cooler remounted.

    At least with the custom cooler cards, there is frequently some price premium that went towards the assembler having at least some financial interest in caring if the cooler was well-mounted.

    This goes into financial analysis, which I suck at, but looking at the financial results of the graphics group, that $50 very well could be enough to hurt the 290, either in terms of cost or the loss of volume.

    Besides, it seems that AMD really wants to get those cards out at a price point that should provide decent movement, perhaps to give AMD's software efforts a stronger foothold to coax developers to care?
     
  17. jimbo75

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    Neither card was explicitly recommended against on Anandtech. The 480 was more expensive also.

    In this case we have what is basically an incredible value high end card that is too noisy. We can all agree on that, however Anandtech has gone beyond all reason by recommending against the card for this reason alone.

    There are so many holes I could pick in Ryan's article that I barely know where to start. Instead of lowering the fan speed and comparing to the $100 more expensive 780, why didn't he compare it to the 770 instead at the same fan noise?

    I have a real problem with reviewers arbitrarily setting limits for what is an isn't good enough, especially when they are reviewing on the pre-eminent tech site on the web.

    Look at the Titan conclusion - http://www.anandtech.com/show/6774/nvidias-geforce-gtx-titan-part-2-titans-performance-unveiled/16

    In this case the quietness of the card supposedly made it worth a grand. Price/performance is the most important metric yet that was completely thrown out the window with Titan and the 290, which was deemed not worthy of recommendation because of noise.

    The 290 basically equals Titan at $600 less, yet it can't be recommended? $600 will easily buy you a completely silent setup and then some. This doesn't matter? Price performance no longer matters at all, just noise? That's what he's saying. Even at 40% fan speed this card is still a really good deal on price/performance. At 34% fan speed the card would easily beat a 770 at the same noise levels, yet he uses the excuse of it not being like that out of the box? Are we enthusiasts or what?

    http://anandtech.com/show/7481/the-amd-radeon-r9-290-review/17

    Who says so? This whole thing is only happening now because Nvidia started it with their turbo in the first place. Now that AMD has perfected some kind of uber-turbo, we have reviewers arbitrarily settings laws on what is good stock shipping practice? Who says adjustability cannot preclude shipping a more reasonable product in the first place?
     
    #1857 jimbo75, Nov 5, 2013
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  18. UniversalTruth

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    In my opinion it doesn't even need to be so HUGE price difference. You seem to throw these money figures as you were printing money... So easily.

    Anyways, my point being is that if you put 50$ on top of the cost for each cooler mounted currently on the 290s, you would probably get double gold plated with 3 fans or something...
     
  19. Babel-17

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    http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1789470&highlight=brenda&page=11

    This is a bit puzzling. It's been speculated that some reviewers, upon installing different drivers, had the fan profile fail to set itself properly.

    guru3D also suggests, imo, that the noise level is not a deal killing issue.

    http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/radeon_r9_290_review_benchmarks,13.html

     
  20. homerdog

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