AMD: R8xx Speculation

How soon will Nvidia respond with GT300 to upcoming ATI-RV870 lineup GPUs

  • Within 1 or 2 weeks

    Votes: 1 0.6%
  • Within a month

    Votes: 5 3.2%
  • Within couple months

    Votes: 28 18.1%
  • Very late this year

    Votes: 52 33.5%
  • Not until next year

    Votes: 69 44.5%

  • Total voters
    155
  • Poll closed .
The problem here has never been the existence of a hardware bug. The problem is/was AMD downplaying and even denying that it was anything other than a problem with the hardware. I doubt NVIDIA would respond to that bug (which appears to be more of a chipset thing BTW) with "oh, well... try not to run new 3D applications with those drivers installed... the cards weren't really made for that. Just play Quake 3 - we tested that a bit".

Anyways I'm done with this topic... AMD has actually solved the problem in the 5k series, which is admission enough of there being a real problem anyways. I love the 4k/5k series hardware but trashing ('power virus'? come on...) an application for breaking their hardware just struck me as abnormally unprofessional. Whatever... back to sweet DX11 courtesy of AMD :)

Yeah, Nvidia would never say anything like that.

"Oh well, just update the BIOS so that the fan runs faster, that should do it... maybe."
 
"Oh well, just update the BIOS so that the fan runs faster, that should do it... maybe."
NVIDIA did admit that that was their screw up (and a huge one at that - being one who lost a laptop to that very issue) and tried to fix it as best they could. Never once did I hear them blame their hardware overheating on people running applications on it... Obviously everyone screws up, but blaming the applications for something that is a clear hardware problem is just childish.
 
Oh yeah.. Nvidia everytime aknowledges an error... just like in the "bumpgate" situation. Come on, both vendors make mistakes and they try to cover them if there is the possibilty for money to be lost.
 
NVIDIA did admit that that was their screw up (and a huge one at that - being one who lost a laptop to that very issue) and tried to fix it as best they could. Never once did I hear them blame their hardware overheating on people running applications on it... Obviously everyone screws up, but blaming the applications for something that is a clear hardware problem is just childish.


Yeah, they just blamed users for using their laptops in some kind of unnatural way ie, turning them on and off, expecting to use power saving features, etc.
 
NVIDIA did admit that that was their screw up (and a huge one at that - being one who lost a laptop to that very issue) and tried to fix it as best they could. Never once did I hear them blame their hardware overheating on people running applications on it... Obviously everyone screws up, but blaming the applications for something that is a clear hardware problem is just childish.


No, actually, they never admitted it was their screwup, they just blamed the OEMs for incompetent engineering, TSMC for unspecified problems, and anyone but themselves.

To date, they have not said what chips are affected, citing manufacturer's silencing them. The manufacturers say otherwise. Still, no list of affected parts anywhere, and no help for consumers.

They did in fact blame customers running software, unless you have a different reading of, "While we have not been able to determine a root cause for these failures, testing suggests a weak material set of die/package combination, system thermal management designs, and customer use patterns are contributing factors." (From the July 2, 2008 8-K). They still claim they don't understand the science behind the failures, but everyone else does for some reason.

-Charlie
 
No, actually, they never admitted it was their screwup, they just blamed the OEMs for incompetent engineering, TSMC for unspecified problems, and anyone but themselves.

To date, they have not said what chips are affected, citing manufacturer's silencing them. The manufacturers say otherwise. Still, no list of affected parts anywhere, and no help for consumers.

They did in fact blame customers running software, unless you have a different reading of, "While we have not been able to determine a root cause for these failures, testing suggests a weak material set of die/package combination, system thermal management designs, and customer use patterns are contributing factors." (From the July 2, 2008 8-K). They still claim they don't understand the science behind the failures, but everyone else does for some reason.

-Charlie

Its funny you say that as there are several cases where people with enough now how have posted about "Adjusting", ie: bending the heatpipe a tad, the heatpipe/hs for the GPU in their laptops with Nvidia GPUs and noted a sizable decrease in GPU temps in both idle and heavy usage situations. But according to you, that isn't an OEM engineering problem. Seems to me, had the OEM insured proper HS/heatpipe installation on those GPUs, the numbers of problems would not have been so great.
 
No, actually, they never admitted it was their screwup, they just blamed the OEMs for incompetent engineering, TSMC for unspecified problems, and anyone but themselves.
I won't argue the point, but fine - I didn't mean to imply any one company is somehow better than anyone else (this appears to be pretty touchy!)... I'm only talking about this one case. I just haven't ever heard NVIDIA tell me not to run program X or write code Y because it's 'atypical' and they don't handle that. If they have/do/will I'll bitch at them just as much :)
 
And who has ever said that from AMD?
"Power virus"? Sigh...

Anyways, back to concentrating on how sweet the 5xxx series is. I've suitably registered my distaste with my perceived downplaying of a legitimate issue in previous hardware. Obviously politics will be politics but as long as we all agree that software shouldn't be able to do that to hardware, then we're on the same page. Cool :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The only uncool thing about 5800 series is availability. Reminds me of the 8800GT ordeal but maybe worse.
 
No, actually, they never admitted it was their screwup, they just blamed the OEMs for incompetent engineering, TSMC for unspecified problems, and anyone but themselves.

To date, they have not said what chips are affected, citing manufacturer's silencing them. The manufacturers say otherwise. Still, no list of affected parts anywhere, and no help for consumers.

They did in fact blame customers running software, unless you have a different reading of, "While we have not been able to determine a root cause for these failures, testing suggests a weak material set of die/package combination, system thermal management designs, and customer use patterns are contributing factors." (From the July 2, 2008 8-K). They still claim they don't understand the science behind the failures, but everyone else does for some reason.

-Charlie

Wow, you are a bigger spin doctor than anyone who has ever worked at any IHV in existence :D

NVIDIA set aside hundreds of millions of dollars to pay for these issues, but they blame everyone but themselves? Highly illogical (but expected from you in your emotional rants). NVIDIA took the hit largely on their own, that is pretty much undeniable (unless you live in a fantasy world and claim that other far bigger companies like Dell, HP, Apple, etc set aside hundreds of millions of dollars of their own money to pay for this).

Regarding NVIDIA blaming customers for running software, that is ridiculous, and perhaps your understanding of the english language is not so great. They clearly said that they were not able to determine "a" root cause (meaning one root cause) of the problem, but contributing to the problem were various items (including usage patterns), which is perfectly reasonable and makes perfect sense given that not each and every individual suffered a failure, and not each and every individual used the hardware in the same way.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Regarding NVIDIA blaming customers for running software, that is ridiculous, and perhaps your understanding of the english language is not so great. They clearly said that they were not able to determine "a" root cause (meaning one root cause) of the problem, but contributing to the problem were various items (including usage patterns), which is perfectly reasonable and makes perfect sense given that not each and every individual on the planet suffered a failure.

Wait.. did you just agree with nVidia that they have no idea that they screwed up the bumps themselves and blaim it on "usage patterns" ?
It would be perfectly "reasonable" if they didn't send out e-mails to everyone where they say that they change the bump material because of the defects and tell the press "they have no idea where the issues come from"
 
Wait.. did you just agree with nVidia that they have no idea that they screwed up the bumps themselves and blaim it on "usage patterns" ?
It would be perfectly "reasonable" if they didn't send out e-mails to everyone where they say that they change the bump material because of the defects and tell the press "they have no idea where the issues come from"

This is non-sensical. NVIDIA clearly stated that they were not able to find "a" (ie. "one"; "single"; "uno") main cause for the problem, but rather several items contributed to it. So you twist that to mean "they have no idea where the issues came from"? Please :) Re-read the statement again (do I need to repeat myself for a third time?).
 
This is non-sensical. NVIDIA clearly stated that they were not able to find "a" (ie. "one"; "single"; "uno") main cause for the problem, but rather several items contributed to it. So you twist that to mean "they have no idea where the issues came from"? Please :) Re-read the statement again (do I need to repeat myself for a third time?).

And that is the problem "they" didn't find one single cause for the lead bumps cracking, but were (not so quick) to replace the material and blame everyone but themselves for the problem. The problem is in the inferior material which will eventually break because of it's high lead contents. Saying that only part of the GPU's failed doesn't make the problem magically disappear in the other products.
 
I don't see much of a general overheating problem there (ofcourse it can be for a few ppl with bad cooling), but several reports (especially on the first link) of ppl experiencing the crashes at low temperatures. Looks more like general problems (with the game/render code) in high settings than overheating. But ofcourse it's more conveniant for the authors to refer to the crashes as "the overheating problem" ;)
 
Its funny you say that as there are several cases where people with enough now how have posted about "Adjusting", ie: bending the heatpipe a tad, the heatpipe/hs for the GPU in their laptops with Nvidia GPUs and noted a sizable decrease in GPU temps in both idle and heavy usage situations. But according to you, that isn't an OEM engineering problem. Seems to me, had the OEM insured proper HS/heatpipe installation on those GPUs, the numbers of problems would not have been so great.

If that is true, why do such incompetent engineering chuckleheads at HP. Dell, Apple, Lenovo, Sony, Acer, Toshiba and others only screw up on models with NV chips?

Also, these chips are running in spec, why do you need more cooling?

-Charlie
 
NVIDIA set aside hundreds of millions of dollars to pay for these issues, but they blame everyone but themselves? Highly illogical (but expected from you in your emotional rants). NVIDIA took the hit largely on their own, that is pretty much undeniable (unless you live in a fantasy world and claim that other far bigger companies like Dell, HP, Apple, etc set aside hundreds of millions of dollars of their own money to pay for this).

No, Nvidia did not "take the hit on their own", HP pays for half on their part, and I would assume others pay roughly the same. You are dead wrong there. Other companies don't set aside for it, they set aside for warranty problems, and that is one of them.

Regarding NVIDIA blaming customers for running software, that is ridiculous, and perhaps your understanding of the english language is not so great. They clearly said that they were not able to determine "a" root cause (meaning one root cause) of the problem, but contributing to the problem were various items (including usage patterns), which is perfectly reasonable and makes perfect sense given that not each and every individual suffered a failure, and not each and every individual used the hardware in the same way.

OK, then what does "customer use patterns are contributing factors." mean briainchild? That the chips die if the laptops are only used on thursdays? It they are not polished correctly?

It is ironic that you pick nits on this point though. Everyone else, and there were 5 I think, was able to come up with 'A' reason why these failed. So Nvidia is either bad at english, or bad at making chips. Either way, they came up with 'A' solution, that fixed however many problems you want to sit in your basement and froth about.

I had about a 2 hour phone call with Mike Hara about the issue, and he was swearing that Nvidia had no idea what was causing the problems, and that it was beyond science. The call took place after the PCNs issuing the fix.

Mike should know better, as an IR person, he is bound by SEC rules when speaking for the company. He was speaking for the company at that point. If he did not know, he was legally bound to say "I don't know", "I will find out", or "no comment". Well, he could also tell the truth, but remember who he works for.

The "no idea" line, along with the "multiple causes" bit is what you call a talking point. It is NV PR/IR's job to spit them out while hoping people are dumb enough believe it, or at the very least, won't check up on it. I gather you believed and didn't check.

-Charlie
 
Back
Top