AMD Bulldozer review thread.

It won't push Intel to rush out with their products but they still have to come up with newer, faster and generally better CPUs because they will need people to upgrade their existing stuff instead of just replacing broken parts or they won't be making enough money to get anywhere. Basically even if AMD would cease to exist they will still compete with their own older offerings.

To some extent, but they don't need to do much. They can process shrink older stuff and make marginal improvements. The old stock will go out of inventory and they can charge whatever they want to replace it with chips that will cost them less to produce. If the trend continues intel profitability will likely increase though :) still ARM cores will provide some competition eventually.
 
The L2 cache latency certainly isn't good but I'm not sure it makes that much of a performance difference.
Also, don't forget Llano manages to have a similarly bad L2 latency with half the L2 size and without having to worry about core sharing, the reasons could be similar (power draw related mostly, I guess).

I've been seeing this talk about L2 latency on Llano being similar to Bulldozer's all over the internet the past few days. It probably doesn't help that Charlie said so in his latest BD article. In actuality, Llano's L2 latency is exactly the same number of clocks as in Greyhound cores:

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...a8-3850-apu-review-llano-hits-desktop-11.html

You have to normalize for clock speed to get the same value, of course. The only reason why Llano vs BD doesn't look as bad is because they're clocking Llano so low. Although I suppose it could be the L2 latency that's keeping Llano's clocks down.

Suffice it to say, Llano's L2 latency wouldn't give it worse IPC than Athlon II, so it can't be used as a data point in saying that worse L2 doesn't hurt performance.

rapso said:
I also don't think 20cycles for L2 are that slow, on an out of order architecture, it could be hidden, with prefetch units that shall really be not causing an 8core@4.2Ghz to be slower than the old 6Core at @~3GHz.

FX-8150 can't hit 4.2GHz with all 8 cores running. Limit is 3.9GHz, but depending on the workload it may not be able to go beyond 3.6GHz. The fastest Phenom II X6 bin (1100T) is actually 3.3GHz w/o turbo, meaning that the clock gap isn't nearly as big as you're making it sound. With its terrible IPC you can see how BD would struggle on workloads that aren't pushing > 6 core aggregate usage.
 
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Even if AMD imploded, with how tablets and such are becoming more competitive with notebooks I'm not sure if Intel could stagnate too much or raise prices much either. I think there are new adversaries besides the wreck that is AMD CPUs. I think this is the main reason for Intel having prices as competitive as they are right now, and not so much AMD's existence and barely meaningful competition.
 
Probably not, but running a whole slew of GPU limited games certainly does.

But both tests of F1 2011 are ran with ultra settings, 1920x1080 and 8xAA.

Tom´s dozer scores 60fps, Hardware Heaven´s dozer gets 79fps.

I haven´t followed that HH site at all, should they be considered unbiased and reliable?
 
I've been seeing this talk about L2 latency on Llano being similar to Bulldozer's all over the internet the past few days. It probably doesn't help that Charlie said so in his latest BD article. In actuality, Llano's L2 latency is exactly the same number of clocks as in Greyhound cores:

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/foru...a8-3850-apu-review-llano-hits-desktop-11.html
That's not what I've seen in reviews:
21 cycles (Llano) vs. 15 (Athlon II) vs. 10 (Phenom II): http://ht4u.net/reviews/2011/amd_llano_apu_desktop_a8/index10.php
20 vs 15 cycles: http://techreport.com/articles.x/21208/4
3.6ns vs. 3.2ns (AII 635 - same frequency): http://www.hardware.fr/articles/837-2/architecture-cpu-nouveau-controleur-memoire.html
Can't tell who's right though... maybe Turbo (even if it does nothing most of the time) could skew results or whatnot, though I'll note the hardwarecanucks numbers seem to be pretty random and some make no sense at all (e.g. Phenom II X4 980 has huge latency, or PII 1090T vs 1100T), I'm trusting the numbers from the other sites more...
 
But both tests of F1 2011 are ran with ultra settings, 1920x1080 and 8xAA.

Tom´s dozer scores 60fps, Hardware Heaven´s dozer gets 79fps.

I haven´t followed that HH site at all, should they be considered unbiased and reliable?

Does F1 2011 have a benchmark mode that both sites are using? Otherwise they could be testing different parts of the game. It's not hard to imagine one part being GPU limited at some settings and another part not being GPU limited.

What makes HH's review poor compared to THG's is that it only tests the game at one setting and it only compares the FX-8150 with the i7-2600K. If they threw in lower settings and slower/fewer core processors it'd be clearer if it's GPU limited. As it is, all you see is two CPUs getting close to the same scores over and over again, and when AMD wins by a small difference HH shouts victory. I've speculated that BD may have the advantage in some otherwise GPU limited situations, possibly due to superior uncore or GPU drivers, letting it have these slight advantages, but not when they call on actual increased CPU load.

HH leads with a preface that they only test at super high settings because those are "realistic." What isn't realistic is that everyone interested in this CPU will also be interested in buying a GPU that costs even more than it does, like the one HH used for this test. But it's still not enough to keep it from being GPU limited when they seem to go for the highest possible settings they can. If this is really all they think is realistic then they'd be better off throwing significantly slower CPUs into the mix to show that they can also reach those GPU limited points.

They also say things like this:

"At first glance the performance of our FX-8150 in video playback tasks may seem a little disappointing. That isn't the case though because what we are seeing here is the AMD CPU reducing its power consumption by moving down to a lower clockspeed than the Intel CPU which makes the performance figures look worse."

Nowhere does the review demonstrate any evidence of this being the case, nor does it even state what frequency it goes to. If this is really the case then they should have turned clock throttling off or not bothered with these tests in the first place.

Then there's the part where an overclock is shown, but despite being in the same section as power consumption there's no mention of what the 5GHz clock consumes, any indication of performance, or even any indication of stability...

Seems to me that HH should focus more on providing a thorough and balanced review instead of making it look as flashy as possible. Not saying some of the other reviews aren't weak or biased, of course. And I don't think HH is a biased review site, I just think this particular review is bad. If they have any overall negative tendencies it's that their scores are all too high.

EDIT: HH says this in a forum post:

"As for F1, no of course it isn't the inbuilt benchmark."

No further elaboration is given as to why the built-in benchmark isn't used. We don't know what THG did, but at the very least you can conclude that it wasn't the same benchmark.
 
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That's not what I've seen in reviews:
21 cycles (Llano) vs. 15 (Athlon II) vs. 10 (Phenom II): http://ht4u.net/reviews/2011/amd_llano_apu_desktop_a8/index10.php
20 vs 15 cycles: http://techreport.com/articles.x/21208/4
3.6ns vs. 3.2ns (AII 635 - same frequency): http://www.hardware.fr/articles/837-2/architecture-cpu-nouveau-controleur-memoire.html
Can't tell who's right though... maybe Turbo (even if it does nothing most of the time) could skew results or whatnot, though I'll note the hardwarecanucks numbers seem to be pretty random and some make no sense at all (e.g. Phenom II X4 980 has huge latency, or PII 1090T vs 1100T), I'm trusting the numbers from the other sites more...

This is what Lost Circuits has to say:

"There have been some conflicting numbers about the L2 cache latency being in excess of 20 cycles, however, it appears that - at least if Sandra is correct - the real number is 15 cycles. One of the issues that may play into the different reporting is the Turbo CORE, that is, if an xx00 processor is used, the top frequency may be used for the time stamp correlation when in reality, the CPU only runs at the base frequency but this kind of analysis is outside the scope of the article at hand."

There's really no reason why a Phenom II should score better L2 cache latency than an Athlon II. They're using the same L2 cache. 15 should be the correct number (3 + 12). I agree that some of the numbers on the HardwareCanucks link look suspect.
 
at the moment, prices here in Finland are like this:

2600k 259.90€
FX-8150 248,00€

So I guess AMD needs to come up with a price drop, fast.
 
Amen :p

I'm quite sad about BD; I need something to upgrade from my o/c'd Q6600. Eight "cores" sounded intriguing, but I guess I will wait until Ivy Bridge.

An OCed Sandy Bridge will be a gigantic leap forward for you... No need for Ivy. If you want to wait, be my guest, but it's not needed.
 
An OCed Sandy Bridge will be a gigantic leap forward for you... No need for Ivy. If you want to wait, be my guest, but it's not needed.

I'm in the same case. Thing is I don't want to O/C anymore (because at some point it goes crazy, maybe 1-2 years after a 100% stable oc, bam, it's not stable anymore...), and I'm not the crazy nerd tweaking every voltage&stuff I was some years ago.

I was looking at fx8150, but it's not fast enough and pretty hot. Now Xeon E-1230 look very nice (beside gaming, I fold a lot, 3d rendering, and 2-3 other stuff pretty cpu demanding), and IB... when will it be available btw ?

Right now my q6600 (even at 2.4ghz) is still going strong anyway

Must... resist...
 
Yeah I don't see myself doing anything until Ivy Bridge (if then). I don't need to upgrade when PS360 is in control and games are running 60fps anyway on ye olde Q6600@3.0 and Phenom II 940. Maybe if I was a Civ V addict. Or if I endlessly played Crysis 1 and Supreme Commander and wanted to fight their horrid multicore scaling.
 
jF5gB.jpg

As you can see, Total War: Shogun 2 triggers this bug. Which is rather ironic, since it is part of AMD’s Gaming Evolved program.

The hardware.fr review says that AMD has been able to reproduce the bug, and is working on a fix.

Now, what is happening here? Let’s look at Microsoft’s site for an explanation of this particular error code:


The CLOCK_WATCHDOG_TIMEOUT bug check has a value of 0×00000101. This indicates that an expected clock interrupt on a secondary processor, in a multi-processor system, was not received within the allocated interval.

..

Cause

The specified processor is not processing interrupts. Typically, this occurs when the processor is nonresponsive or is deadlocked.
Source
 
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