360 HD-DVD Rumours - $170 in JPN? 1080p and MCE compatability?

[expletive]

Wonder how much processing power the upscaling to 1080p needs over 720p/1080i, and if it's done mainly in software would it effect the more complex games.

Scaling is not nearly the power-hog that motion adaptive deinterlacing is on HD material so I just wanted to clarify in case you were interchanging the two.

That said, i cant see MS giving away any performance for this feature in regards to gaming, it would be interesting to see what role the video i/o chip has in all of this. The theory was that this chip was intrinsic to the video chain and thats why HDMI was not possible as the chip converted everything to analog. If its doing that here, then it seems like it might have/require some level of native 1080p support to even deal with a 1080p signal. If thats the case then it might be doing it on it own, leaving the rest of the system to its own business.

 

[expletive]

For the millionith time in this thread, no. You're thinking of the ICT, which, when present, mandates a downgraded signal over analog connections (like component) and HDCP-less digital connections. However, AFAIK most studios have agreed not to release any content containing the ICT until 2011, due to the prevelance of non-HDCP sets out there. Also, they feel it would slow HDDVD/Blu-Ray adoption and be a PR nightmare (which they're right).

I believe it was ALL the studios until at LEAST 2011.

 

[Asher]

True, but the number of TVs accepting 1080p versus the number that accept 1080p over component may grow going forward. I don't know if 1080p over component is something that will become common (?)

It's common as it is now.

Actually, my TV (Westinghouse 42" 1080p) has quality problems with 1080p over HDMI @ 60fps -- the chip produces "sparklies". 50fps works fine.

But the DVI, VGA, and Component inputs all support 1080p natively and gorgeously.

 

[one]

It's common as it is now.

Actually, my TV (Westinghouse 42" 1080p) has quality problems with 1080p over HDMI @ 60fps -- the chip produces "sparklies". 50fps works fine.

But the DVI, VGA, and Component inputs all support 1080p natively and gorgeously.

Do you have 1080p/60 contents even though HDMI 1.3 transmitters are not available?

 

[Arwin]

Do you have 1080p/60 contents even though HDMI 1.3 transmitters are not available?

I looked up the manual for this device online, and it supports PC resolutions up to 1920x1080@60 ...

 

[tcrews]

Damn, after 2 years I had to register for this. Can anyone clarify this:


The "p" stands for parity? Parity does not equals to Progressive!
Lol, so they shamesly call it 1080p, but everything is gonna be upscaled from 720p. Maybe they think that PGR3 [rendered @ 540p] needs to be streched-up little more.

And can anyone tell me, will ANY content on x360 be rendered at 1080progressive and then sent to TV?

No, the P stands for progressive. In the article the statement they are making is that the X360 now has "parity" with the PS3 in output resolution bullet points.

Tom Crews

 

[scooby_dooby]

20,000 yen pricepoint confirmed. From the MS press release from GAF:

Microsoft announced pricing and availability details for the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player in Japan. The accessory will launch on Nov. 17, 2006, priced at ¥19,800 (estimated retail price), and will come with an Xbox 360 Universal Media Remote.

 

[Jawed]

I'd like to hear from Jawed on the tiling issue before saying that you are correct there though.

The difficulty with tiling was initially a software library one (as well as not having a real XB360 to dev on).

Ultimately tiling requires some kind of graphics-engine integration - complex frame rendering algorithms (e.g. using multiple render targets or multiple geometry passes) will not easily accept "automatic tiling", so the developer has to take account of the 10MB limit in EDRAM, and work out how to sequence the tiles required for MRTs and multiple geometry passes. The intermediate data used and produced by these techniques is easily tilable - but the developer has to decide on the sequencing and combinations that will use memory most effectively and perform well. Even without tiling these kinds of techniques require care in sequencing and combination, because of the amount of memory they consume in intermediate data as well as final results.

Obviously tuning tiling performance for 1080P is going to be harder than at 720P, because the 10MB EDRAM is now subject to ~2x the tile count. If nothing else, that's just more combinations to evalute!

The ROPs' 4GP/s fillrate is definitely going to be the biggest problem, though. It's why 1080P has always looked bad for 3D graphics in PS3, which has significantly lower ROP performance. You always end up in arguments over how an SPE or 2 will be used to take some ROP workload away from RSX and so on...

For performance in XB360, tiling won't be the bottleneck, the ROPs will. I can't see devs of high-end 3D games bothering just because working around fillrate is way too much of a chore and will find a minor target audience.

Jawed

 

[Asher]

Do you have 1080p/60 contents even though HDMI 1.3 transmitters are not available?

Yup. I get 60fps 1920x1080 perfectly fine via DVI to my Dell XPS M1710.

The TV isn't HDMI 1.3, and ironically HDMI is the "worst" connector on the TV because the HDMI-processing chip in the TV apparently isn't fast enough for non-"sparkly" 60fps 1080p, even though Westinghouse claims it supports it. Component and DVI are the best connections available, both of which natively support 1080p60 inputs.

 

[AntShaw]

20,000 yen pricepoint confirmed. From the MS press release from GAF:

Wow, and it comes with the Remote?? Thats a pretty good deal.

I'm hoping we can see similar pricing when it comes to the states. I can't see this slipping pass the holiday season for us. Looks like AntShaw gets to get himself an early present!

My guess is that we will see it somewhere in the $179-$199 price range. Maybe include a HD DVD movie as well in the package?

 

[Jawed]

Please explain? I've always thought tiling was just for AA...

No, tiling is required whenever the developer wants to use the ROPs to work on render targets whose concurrent memory consumption is >10MB.

Some graphics engines like to create 2 or 3 render targets in parallel. Even without AA, the total size of these render targets (while being worked on) is >10MB. So tiling is required.

Once one or more render targets are created (let's say 15MB for the sake of argument) they're put into main memory. The EDRAM is then freed from having to worry about them, so that they no longer have any impact on memory consumption while the ROPs work on other render targets. All of this takes place in several stages for a single frame. e.g. there might be 3 stages of render targets produced per frame.

Tiling is also enforced because Xenos's hierarchical-Z system has a resolution limit of 1280x720 at 2 samples per pixel (I think that's right). So if you want to create a shadow buffer with more samples, you're forced to do so in two passes.

Jawed

 

[one]

Yup. I get 60fps 1920x1080 perfectly fine via DVI to my Dell XPS M1710.

The TV isn't HDMI 1.3, and ironically HDMI is the "worst" connector on the TV because the HDMI-processing chip in the TV apparently isn't fast enough for non-"sparkly" 60fps 1080p, even though Westinghouse claims it supports it. Component and DVI are the best connections available, both of which natively support 1080p60 inputs.

I looked up the manual for this device online, and it supports PC resolutions up to 1920x1080@60 ...

I saw https://www.westinghousedigital.com/support/downloads/uMan/42w2_47w1uMan.pdf and it has 1920x1080p 60 Hz indeed. But does it equal to 60fps? I remember reading a clarification on the 1080p support in HDMI 1.1 by the HDMI consortium exec, but forgot the dertails. Anyway, when TVs with HDMI 1.3 support become common, 1080p/60 will be viable for games.

 

[Synergy34]

I saw https://www.westinghousedigital.com/support/downloads/uMan/42w2_47w1uMan.pdf and it has 1920x1080p 60 Hz indeed. But does it equal to 60fps? I remember reading a clarification on the 1080p support in HDMI 1.1 by the HDMI consortium exec, but forgot the dertails. Anyway, when TVs with HDMI 1.3 support become common, 1080p/60 will be viable for games.

The Westy has some issues otherwise i would be pimping it out like crazy. From what I can gather, most owners get the sparkles using HDMI and I think DVI 1, not sure about the VGA.

if Westinghouse fixes the 1080p and the lockup issue(confirmed firmware issue), you would be hard pressed to find a better deal than the 42" LCD Westy, the HD picture is fantastic. i think it's going for 1700 at Best Buy right now.

 

[Asher]

I saw https://www.westinghousedigital.com/support/downloads/uMan/42w2_47w1uMan.pdf and it has 1920x1080p 60 Hz indeed. But does it equal to 60fps? I remember reading a clarification on the 1080p support in HDMI 1.1 by the HDMI consortium exec, but forgot the dertails. Anyway, when TVs with HDMI 1.3 support become common, 1080p/60 will be viable for games.

It's genuinely 60fps @ 1920x1080.

It's possible to tell because when 1080i fields are being used, the "info" screen displays the resolution as 1920x540 60Hz, while for 1080p feeds it says 1920x1080 60Hz.

 

[Hardknock]

I have the Westy and use it as a PC monitor at 1080p through DVI with not a single problem. Use Xbox 360 through component. Haven't had a single lock up so far.

Firmware 1.19

I think it was the earlier firmwares that had the problems, all the westys at retail should be updated with the new firmware by now.

 

[Asher]

Slightly OT but the newest firmware for the Westy is actually "1.00", which is counter-intuitive. It adds some new features.

 

[Synergy34]

Slightly OT but the newest firmware for the Westy is actually "1.00", which is counter-intuitive. It adds some new features.

Actually, i think they went with 1.00 cause according to the westy avs thread there is supposedly a new panel manufacturer on the 1.00 sets.

 

[wco81]

So they will upscale games rendered in 720p to 1080p.

Probably in the GPU?

What happens when that upscaled image reaches the output chip which is limited to 1080i?

Also, if a 1080p TV doesn't take 1080p in its component inputs, it would be upscaled again?

 

[scooby_dooby]

What happens when that upscaled image reaches the output chip which is limited to 1080i?

It's not limited to 1080i, it's just limited to analogue output. We've just assumed that 1080p was not going to be aloowed through component, but obviously it is.

I think when Sony announced no HDMI on the base SKU, that was all MS needed to run with it. Now both Sony and MS are probably pushing hard to allow 1080p over component and the studios seem like their going to allow it.

 

[Tap In]

I think when Sony announced no HDMI on the base SKU, that was all MS needed to run with it. Now both Sony and MS are probably pushing hard to allow 1080p over component and the studios seem like their going to allow it.

yep, by the time the fall update hits, I expect component over 1080p to no longer be a question. They would not go to this extent without having some knowledge of how it will all play out.

now it's just a matter of ramping up production of 1080p over component TV's. :smile: