360 HD-DVD Rumours - $170 in JPN? 1080p and MCE compatability?

[J_Saint]

But really, is there a high amount of TV's that support 1080p over component?

I believe the new Samsung S series DLP sets released earlier this year will accept 1080p over component and a few lesser known brands like HP do as well. The new DLP sets from Toshiba and Mitsubishi will not and neither will the SXRD sets from Sony. It is worth mentioning that most of the new 1080p sets have a PC input with either a VGA or DVI connection that from what I've read from owners on AVS can handle 1080p.

Most of the 1080p content available now is HD DVD and Blu-ray which is limted to HDMI so I understand why most sets don't bother to support 1080p over component. It will be interesting to see if the new sets released in Summer-Fall 2007 add support since by then I'd expect the 360/PS3 Core base to be 12-15+ million. We should get hint of whats to come at CES in January.

 

[expletive]

I had a feeling about that for HD DVD (the 1080i), it will be interesting to see how the PS3 handles 1080p for movies, I can't imagine it being any different than the rest of the Blu-ray Disc players on the market or coming to market. Hopefully, in '07 we will see 1080p from disc to tv without all the extra processing, although it may not be until '08 from the hardware side for both sides of the blue laser debacle.

Its probably worth pointing out for those that intend to get the drive, that setting your player to 1080i on the Toshiba HD DVD players has consistently given a better picture than 720p, this includes TVs that have a native 720p res. It will be interesting to see if the same holds true on the accessory. If so, I would hope the dashboard allows a setting for the 360 for games, and a movie setting.

Why do you think the HD-DVD is only in 1080i? I understand that 1080i is still 1080p/24sf in a 60hz wrapper but i wonder why not offer up the native format? or 1080/30p?

 

[Carl B]

clarified info.... no 1080p Component for movies just games and VGA

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8478750&&#post8478750

Thanks Tap In. Over VGA eh? Well, that's almost the same as not at all then as far as the average consumer is concerned; though ironically the average consumer probably can't discern what resolution they're viewing at anyway.

And does the scaling support for 720p to 1080p essentially mean that as long as the TV can display it, all games will be scaled to 1080p? I think I'm still unclear on this point.

OK, here is what I was talking about. It wasn't as clear cut as I remembered but...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8380021&&#post8380021

Yeah that still means that MS is working in a constrained environment then though. It's not Sony's PS3 in a void that's creating shortages... indeed the entire industry is constrained right now. And BD partners that would have sourced from them before now have to go to Nichia, increasing demand at the primary supplier for both camps.

I had a feeling about that for HD DVD (the 1080i), it will be interesting to see how the PS3 handles 1080p for movies, I can't imagine it being any different than the rest of the Blu-ray Disc players on the market or coming to market. Hopefully, in '07 we will see 1080p from disc to tv without all the extra processing, although it may not be until '08 from the hardware side for both sides of the blue laser debacle.

I imagine everything should be ok in 1080p land for the HDMI version though.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Why do you think the HD-DVD is only in 1080i? I understand that 1080i is still 1080p/24sf in a 60hz wrapper but i wonder why not offer up the native format? or 1080/30p?

Going way off topic here, but why can't TVs run at lower than 50/60Hz? We hear how PAL TVs get sped-up films. Surely these days an LCD TV for example could actually sync to 24 fps.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Yeah that still means that MS is working in a constrained environment then though.

Duh!

The fact they are not competing for the same diodes is good though, it means they have as good a shot as any other CE manufacturer at getting a fair share of units. I mean, at best MS needs maybe 5-10% of the diodes sony does.

It seems strange Sony wouldn't try and get all the diodes they could right now, regardless of the source. Is this only a cost issue?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It seems strange Sony wouldn't try and get all the diodes they could right now, regardless of the source. Is this only a cost issue?

Probably a contract issue. There was a post a while back suggesting blue laser diodes would be north of $175 for new customers, or words to that effect. Basically, that's the sort of price you'd need to be willing to pay to get any of the stock. My guess is MS's is consuming Toshiba stock, and the diodes will be whatever Toshiba gets and is willing to put into an XB360 HD DVD drive. I don't suppose they have a supply problem, as my guess is the supply is being determined by another party. I can't imagine MS going to the effort of handling this as a full MS-driven product, sourcing components and whatnot. The returns just aren't there. I think (random speculation of course) that this is Toshiba using MS as a marketting partner, providing the drives for MS to pass on, benefiting both parties. That would make the drive Toshiba's responsibility.

 

[scooby_dooby]

Ya that seems reasonable, I wonder if Toshiba is subsidizing these at all. On another note, where does this assumption come from that BR Diodes = HD-DVD Diodes in cost?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Ya that seems reasonable, I wonder if Toshiba is subsidizing these at all. On another note, where does this assumption come from that BR Diodes = HD-DVD Diodes in cost?

The actual blue laser component is the same in both device. The drive heads may have different costs, but the diodes are the same thing.

 

[Carl B]

^^^ Exactly.

Also great point with the 'Toshiba project' analysis Shifty. These drives are very likely actually being manufactured by Toshiba themselves under an OEM agreement, and sourced on the cheap to MS. It's of mutual interest to both parties, and it would provide MS with 'below-market' components/finished goods, even though Toshiba themselves is not a producer of blue laser diodes.

Toshiba is also making MS' Zune player for them, so probably a fairly strong manufacturing relationship between the two at this point.

 

[RobertR1]

Here is some VERY good information regard Blu Ray and HD DVD diodes and OPU's:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8383411&&#post8383411

 

[oli2]

There are some things i don't get about these annoncements :
- Scaling games to 1080p, is it :
+ Hardware ? : the quality of the internal scaler is questionnable (i am not sure it would be marvellous).
+ Software ? : Where do they find the resource to perform it ?
- Movies : HDCP is no more mandatory for HD content ?

any ideas ?

 

[hongcho]

There are some things i don't get about these annoncements :
- Scaling games to 1080p, is it :
+ Hardware ? : the quality of the internal scaler is questionnable (i am not sure it would be marvellous).
+ Software ? : Where do they find the resource to perform it ?

Probably the hardware.

Not only scaling to 1080p, they also mentioned that it is possible for a game to render to 1080p although Microsoft has no intention of making such a game.

- Movies : HDCP is no more mandatory for HD content ?

Technically it is still. The analog resolution (well actually image quality since the frame rate is a part of the equation) restriction is controled by ICT (Image Constraint Token) as a part of AACS. However, it is rumored that the movie studios have decided to defer the usage of ICT until 2011. At least none of the HD DVD and the BD titles so far include ICT.

Also note that 1080p output for movies on Xbox 360 is over the VGA output only. For movies, the component output will still be limited to 1080i.

Hong.

 

[NavNucST3]

I imagine everything should be ok in 1080p land for the HDMI version though.

I think you are missing what I am referring to, even on the current BD players, the film content goes from 1080p/24 to 1080i/60 to 1080p/60 the BD players have a chip dedicated to that last step (expletive: thats what I was referring to, the fact that the BD's have an extra chip, I wasn't expecting the 360HD to add an additional cost to itself when even our HD A1s havent added the chip, which is why we have 1080i as our output). So, regardless of it being HDMI (the HD A1 is hdmi as well) everything is not ok. Its a hardware issue that effects all the current devices. I just want my content to go from disc to tv with as little processing as possible (read: none ). Personally, I think its just easier to blame everything on the tv mfrs. 1080p/24 please, thank you very much.

Again, I still think that users are going to find that setting your 360 to 1080i or 1080p on native 720p sets looks better than keeping the setting at 720p with regards to 1080i/p content. This is of course based on the first gen toshibas.

 

[quest55720]

I think you are missing what I am referring to, even on the current BD players, the film content goes from 1080p/24 to 1080i/60 to 1080p/60 the BD players have a chip dedicated to that last step (expletive: thats what I was referring to, the fact that the BD's have an extra chip, I wasn't expecting the 360HD to add an additional cost to itself when even our HD A1s havent added the chip, which is why we have 1080i as our output). So, regardless of it being HDMI (the HD A1 is hdmi as well) everything is not ok. Its a hardware issue that effects all the current devices. I just want my content to go from disc to tv with as little processing as possible (read: none ). Personally, I think its just easier to blame everything on the tv mfrs. 1080p/24 please, thank you very much.

Again, I still think that users are going to find that setting your 360 to 1080i or 1080p on native 720p sets looks better than keeping the setting at 720p with regards to 1080i/p content. This is of course based on the first gen toshibas.

From what I understand that was a bug on the toshiba unit that has been fixed with 2.0. I am not expecting much from a sub 200 dollar HD-Movie player add on anyways. I am hoping for sub 300 dollar standalone players by next christmass.

 

[NavNucST3]

From what I understand that was a bug on the toshiba unit that has been fixed with 2.0. I am not expecting much from a sub 200 dollar HD-Movie player add on anyways.

Many would disagree, 2.0 while better for 720p, still isn't quite there. However, it is MUCH better than the previous, firmware revisions.

 

[Cobra101]

That's definitely a megaton! So upscaling to 1080p aswell?

My new set happier than ever

1080p is now cool.

It was a frivolous thing on the PS3 as I recall.

 

[Cobra101]

The difficulty with tiling was initially a software library one (as well as not having a real XB360 to dev on).

It's why 1080P has always looked bad for 3D graphics in PS3, which has significantly lower ROP performance. You always end up in arguments over how an SPE or 2 will be used to take some ROP workload away from RSX and so on...

Jawed

Ridge Racer 7 on PS3 looks pretty decent at 1080p.

 

[Hardknock]

1080p is now cool.

It was a frivolous thing on the PS3 as I recall.

I got my 1080p set before this announcement and thank you.

 

[Tap In]

Ridge Racer 7 on PS3 looks pretty decent at 1080p.

have you seen it in person Cobra?


in general...
it amazes me how many people are so quick to make sweeping judgements about games based off of crappy screens and movies and declare success or failure.

let's wait until both machines are out and let's play the games at home on our 1080p sets before determining what's what, shall we.

 

[Cobra101]

Sorry. I am just going by journalists opinions as they did play it hands on.

Guess they are wrong and its a graphically poor game.