[360] Forza Motorsport 3

[Graham]

When the game drops, the bullshit stops! Can't wait to see how the screenshots will compare to the replay mode and in game in Oct.

The only true realtime video we have is the video here.
However it's replay, over compressed and also has some strange gamma going on (blacks are really dark). Playback on a TV, it seems half the screen is black at some points.

Overall it looks very good, however while the edge aliasing isn't that bad (I'd guess it's full 4x), there is noticable texture shimmer going on. It appeared they are using bilinear anisotropic filtering with a slight mip bias on the ground... Made it look crisp in stills but there were definite mip-transition lines, and it'd go quite sparkly just before them. There was also (what I assume) was shader aliasing in some of the chrome highlights on the cars, but these were so small I'm not that surprised.
One would hope they will tweak this, because otherwise it looked very good. HDR, (I assume replay only) Motion blur, subtle Dof and the like were all very, very good. The motion blur alone has a huge number of samples, however it seems to be done at a lower resolution (not too surprising).
**EDIT* they seem to have taken down the 720p download version...

I've got 2 X360's, and I've been considering getting 3 monitors for triplehead PC gaming, so with one more X360 and 3 copies of Forza 3, I should expect something fantastic, right? Well, the framerate of the E3 demo seemed to be cut in half from the single-screen gameplay. I would hope the final game could achieve 60fps in triple-screen mode, considering how much money would have to be spent to run it that way.

I saw a few of the triple screen videos, and from what I could tell, cars were not properly synced in the secondary displays. They appeared very jerky and the track was also slightly out of sync. I'm sure it's simply because it's not the final product.
Considering how 60fps was repeatedly mentioned as a key selling point, I would doubt that will not include cockpit views in the final product.

 

[catisfit]

There was a benefit (and I think it was intentionally implemented this way once it was determined that they weren't going to accurately model non-track surfaces) to this in that it prevented people from cutting the corner short by taking a detour through the infield. If they do attempt to create more accurate off-track surfaces they will also need to come up with a way to prevent it from being exploited, otherwise it would actually hurt gameplay more than help IMO.

It's probably the most annoying feature of F2 IMO. Especially when racing and the AI does its patented tapping you in the outside rear under braking, then you get stuck on the grass glue through no fault of your own.

They don't need to accurately model grass, just make it very bumpy and slippery, i.e. difficult to control the car on and thus best avoided. Keep the laptime punishment system (which works really well) and give the player three strikes and you're black flagged. Y'know, like real life. Or at the very least just key in the penalty time into a rev limiter like pretty much every other game out there. It's jarring when you're racing wheel to wheel in what is supposed to be a simulator, only to have the rules of physics completely shattered before your eyes because you happened to put a wheel in a "no-go" area.

 

[tha_con]

I couldn't help watching this thinking it would be cool if the game could detect you looking to the side so that you could look into a corner slightly before and as you were turning into it. Likewise with looking the other way slightly when coming out of the corner.

That's always been the most disconcerting thing to me with a PC/Console racer in cockpit view (the view I prefer) is that unlike real driving, you can't look into the corner.

This would be the perfect opportunity I think for a system like Natal to greatly enhance a "hardcore" racer as an enhancement rather than a control system.

It would please me to no end to being able to look into a corner as I approach it and keep looking into a corner as I was going through it while in cockpit view.

Granted a feature like that would be useless in chase cam view.

Regards,
SB

I disagree, I think Natal wouldn't fit for head tracking here. Turning my head slightly to look away from the set, while trying to look out of the corner of my eye to keep my eye's on the race is not the least bit interesting. It'll just end up feeling disconnected and awkward. IMO.

I think a better application for that would simply be mapping that function to the right analog stick. Gas and brake on the triggers, steer on the left stick, shift on the bumpers, and "look" on the right stick.

 

[Iron Tiger]

I disagree, I think Natal wouldn't fit for head tracking here. Turning my head slightly to look away from the set, while trying to look out of the corner of my eye to keep my eye's on the race is not the least bit interesting. It'll just end up feeling disconnected and awkward. IMO.

I'd want the option for head tracking. If you're looking away from the TV, it doesn't matter what's going on on the screen. It's not like you turning your head is gonna steer you into a wall.

One would hope they will tweak this, because otherwise it looked very good. HDR, (I assume replay only) Motion blur, subtle Dof and the like were all very, very good. The motion blur alone has a huge number of samples, however it seems to be done at a lower resolution (not too surprising).

F2 had in-game motion blur, if I recall correctly, but it was only noticeable when you look to the sides.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I disagree, I think Natal wouldn't fit for head tracking here. Turning my head slightly to look away from the set, while trying to look out of the corner of my eye to keep my eye's on the race is not the least bit interesting. It'll just end up feeling disconnected and awkward. IMO.

I think a better application for that would simply be mapping that function to the right analog stick. Gas and brake on the triggers, steer on the left stick, shift on the bumpers, and "look" on the right stick.

It depends on how subtle of movements the system can track. If it has facial recognition, it's possible it may be able to track slight movements of your face looking slightly to the left or slightly to the right. And then be able to adjust the in game view accordingly with a larger change in view than your smaller head movement.

Then again perhaps this just sounds better thinking about it than it would be in practical use. But I have no problem turning my head 5-10 degrees while still keeping the entire TV screen in view.

I wouldn't like that thumbstick changing views, what happens then if you have a proper steering wheel? Plus, it just adds more to controller overload. There's already some games I haven't played after being overloaded with too many controls. A side effect of getting older. /sigh...

Regards,
SB

 

[Arwin]

I disagree, I think Natal wouldn't fit for head tracking here. Turning my head slightly to look away from the set, while trying to look out of the corner of my eye to keep my eye's on the race is not the least bit interesting. It'll just end up feeling disconnected and awkward. IMO.

I think a better application for that would simply be mapping that function to the right analog stick. Gas and brake on the triggers, steer on the left stick, shift on the bumpers, and "look" on the right stick.

That's been done, but I don't like it. Head-tracking for racing games has been done too though! I think it can work very well. Right now though I'd love to be able to do that bit with sixaxis already, that could probably work very well for me. But when I'm driving with a wheel, I'd prefer head-tracking. I can even move my upper body to the left a little and turn my head right, and vice versa. But there are also already setups (also used in flight-sims) where you just use a little bit left or right turning of the head to move the camera and then stop moving it by stairing straight again and back.

 

[tha_con]

Well, now that I think about it, I honestly think the best alternative would be a system that works automatically. It "looks" into corners automatically, and can be adjusted for strength (lots of look, or not so much). This takes all of the problem away from the user and can enhance the cockpit view. Hopefully someone does something like this.

That said, I'm still not sold on head tracking.

In "real life" you move your head and look, w/out returning to a fixed position.

In this case, you are adjusting what is displayed on screen by moving your head away from the screen. It's just a seriously "unnatural" feeling. Just simulating what it would feel like looking at the computer screen makes me uncomfortable.

 

[Arwin]

It can be a lot more subtle than you think. It's also not a new idea at all!

Like here:

 

[AlNom]

Overall it looks very good, however while the edge aliasing isn't that bad (I'd guess it's full 4x), there is noticable texture shimmer going on... *snip for brevity*

Gamersyde has another off-screen gameplay video, pretty good quality all-considering. http://www.gamersyde.com/news_8063_en.html

Definitely looks like 4xMSAA and exhibits the points you described. Though it's a tad blurry, the shader aliasing can sort of be seen at around 1:10 on the rear lights.

 

[user542745831]

Turn 10 ‘running out of improvements’ to make on Forza
Greenawalt says team has ‘proven it can deliver a sim no-one else can touch’.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/turn_10_running_out_of_improvements_to_make_on_forza_2.html

 

[Silent_Buddha]

http://www.videogamer.com/news/turn_10_running_out_of_improvements_to_make_on_forza_2.html

Blah the bloke just comes across too cocky. Sometimes, people need to know when to turn off their boasting gene.

Now that he's made those claims it's just going to encourage people to look for whatever flaws they can find, perhaps even so far as to not appreciate any of the good things they might have accomplished.

Shame...

Regards,
SB

 

[RobertR1]

Can we just leave the PR bs off this site?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

It can be a lot more subtle than you think. It's also not a new idea at all!

Like here:

Oh yeah, exactly what I was thinking of, except more polished than that demonstration video.

Ah, perhaps someday a mainstream racer will include that out of the box. I would seriously pick up racing games again...

As well as flight sims...

Regards,
SB

 

[dobwal]

It can be a lot more subtle than you think. It's also not a new idea at all!

Like here:

Looks great except the fact that he actually never really uses it to any great affect during the race other than show that its functional during a straight away.

Its unnatural to use a static display and head tracking in such manner. While driving you tend to steer in the direction you are looking, which in reality works very well when corning. But in the head tracking scenario you create a scenario that breaks that hand to eye coordination and turns it into hand to head coordination.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Looks great except the fact that he actually never really uses it to any great affect during the race other than show that its functional during a straight away.

Its unnatural to use a static display and head tracking in such manner. While driving you tend to steer in the direction you are looking, which in reality works very well when corning. But in the head tracking scenario you create a scenario that breaks that hand to eye coordination and turns it into hand to head coordination.

Except steering in cockpit view breaks the hand-eye coordination of turning even more.

As when using a static display you are always looking forward while you're turning either left or right. This is a bit disorienting for me as not only do I not see where I'm turning, but my head doesn't turn to reflect the fact that I'm turning.

Neither system will get it perfectly like RL at least not without VR style head mounted displays or a screen that curves around you at least in a half sphere..

However, as least this pseudo system will allow the view to change. One less thing to be disoriented with. And at least some movement of the head to track with the change in direction that your hands are telling you should be happening.

Regards,
SB

 

[Arwin]

By the way, chespace confirmed that all new screenshots that have been released have been made with the new and improved photomode. So if there were any doubts (probably not too many), there you have it. Still though, the cars look awesome and the detail with which they are being rendered is pretty amazing.

 

[dobwal]

Except steering in cockpit view breaks the hand-eye coordination of turning even more.

As when using a static display you are always looking forward while you're turning either left or right. This is a bit disorienting for me as not only do I not see where I'm turning, but my head doesn't turn to reflect the fact that I'm turning.

Neither system will get it perfectly like RL at least not without VR style head mounted displays or a screen that curves around you at least in a half sphere..

However, as least this pseudo system will allow the view to change. One less thing to be disoriented with. And at least some movement of the head to track with the change in direction that your hands are telling you should be happening.

Regards,
SB

One is like driving a car with black out side windows, the other is like driving the car where the windshield and windows have been replaced with display screens and your forward orientation is dependent on the direction of your head.

I not sure how its less disorienting to create a situation where when your head and eyes aren't pointing in the same direction that the object that your eyes are directly focused on is not oriented in space as it would be in reality

One way to remedy your issue to is by having racing game not make use of the whole screen vertically and creating a wider viewing angle.

 

[tha_con]

I stand by my suggestion that the POV should change slightly (and most certainly automatically) when you turn.

I view a lot of the new found suggestions for this ridiculous NATAL project to be nothing more than initial desires, but in the end, they simply won't work. It's just new car smell. I forsee limited application, just like Wii, some break out use, while the rest is just worthless.

The tech has potential, but throwing it at every genre you can is just going to expose it's flaws and weakness, rather than highlight it's strengths. I'll never change my stance that head tracking (for this specific purpose) in a racing game is absolutely unnatural and useless.

 

[JardeL]

By the way, chespace confirmed that all new screenshots that have been released have been made with the new and improved photomode. So if there were any doubts (probably not too many), there you have it. Still though, the cars look awesome and the detail with which they are being rendered is pretty amazing.

I'd like to know more about photo mode... Is it like MotorstormR's or adds AA , DOF etc. ?..

 

[Graham]

I stand by my suggestion that the POV should change slightly (and most certainly automatically) when you turn.

I'd agree for the most part. The only game I can remember that did do this was microsoft's 'CART Precision Racing' from wayyyyy back in the day. I've done the same thing in my own demos in the past too