[360] Forza Motorsport 3
- Thread starter Arwin
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(((interference)))
Veteran
Orly.
btw, do we know what's in the special edition*cough*This is not a confirmation I'll be picking up the game...this year.
Not much
http://kotaku.com/5296042/forza-3-limited-edition-includeswell-not-much
Pity they aren't going down the MW2/OF
R route and bundling something cool in, like those F3 racing gloves the driver wears in cockpit view.Some screens of the exclusive cars can be found here
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
right, like i said out of huge stack you will find a couple, the forums at turn10 seem to be very solid.
I say the cars are between 600 to 700k. (going by how the polygons are used more and less in certain areas of the car, the polygons are pretty tightly pact )
even if these cars were 1 mill that still a small faction of what 360 can do. (500 mill)
I think you may want to reconsider your knowledge of the hardware, by a factor of 100 to 200. I'm no hardware expert either, but I think you may be confusing the GPUs theoreticaly output per second with the per frame number that's relevant to what you see in a single screenshot.
It may help you to realise why partly by just considering for a moment how many pixels there are in a 1280x720p screen and how many polygons it even makes sense to use. There are some extremely clever programmers that may be able to setup an environment with 20-30 million polygons, but that's because they'll make sure that only a fraction of them will eventually be drawn by the GPU, and that's not going to be at 60fps per second either.
The only time that polygons in these cars are even going to be remotely like the numbers you guys are entertaining right now is going to be in the car selection screen, where there is only one car nearly filling up the screen. And it's for those screens that the car models have been made with that many polygons.
Finally, you have to realise at some point that if you measure a game's graphics performance solely by the amount of polygons per second or per frame, then that makes about as much sense as measuring a PC's performance by the clock-speed of its CPU.
Anyway, carry on.
It may help you to realise why partly by just considering for a moment how many pixels there are in a 1280x720p screen and how many polygons it even makes sense to use. There are some extremely clever programmers that may be able to setup an environment with 20-30 million polygons, but that's because they'll make sure that only a fraction of them will eventually be drawn by the GPU, and that's not going to be at 60fps per second either.
The only time that polygons in these cars are even going to be remotely like the numbers you guys are entertaining right now is going to be in the car selection screen, where there is only one car nearly filling up the screen. And it's for those screens that the car models have been made with that many polygons.
Finally, you have to realise at some point that if you measure a game's graphics performance solely by the amount of polygons per second or per frame, then that makes about as much sense as measuring a PC's performance by the clock-speed of its CPU.
Anyway, carry on.
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
360's theoretical graphical performance is about 10 million polygons in a single frame, at 60 fps.
(detouring for a second)
this vid confirms nothing about ploygons what so ever, but at 1:25 this guy "chris lee" confirms forza2 has HDR on it's cars.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=14089&type=wmv
so it's seems forza2 had some HDR in it.
this new forza3 video "A lap around sedona raceway"
it's hard to see the AA lv, at around 00:50 to 01:03 the bottom of the vehicle seems pretty clean. (where the two tale pipes are)
(detouring for a second)
this vid confirms nothing about ploygons what so ever, but at 1:25 this guy "chris lee" confirms forza2 has HDR on it's cars.
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=14089&type=wmv
so it's seems forza2 had some HDR in it.
this new forza3 video "A lap around sedona raceway"
it's hard to see the AA lv, at around 00:50 to 01:03 the bottom of the vehicle seems pretty clean. (where the two tale pipes are)
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(((interference)))
Veteran
If it is indeed still only 2xAA that they're using in Forza 3 (and if those vid's represent what the game look's like actual gameplay) how come there is much less aliasing present compared to Forza 2 (which also had 2xAA IIRC).
There is virtually none of the distracting aliasing on the rear of cars, which plagued Forza 2 (and PGR to a lesser degree).
There is virtually none of the distracting aliasing on the rear of cars, which plagued Forza 2 (and PGR to a lesser degree).
Yes, so with 600k polys per car, that's 4,8m polygons per frame already just for the cars, which is about 5x the amount of pixels you draw on the screen, but ok. Then there's the track, you have to do AA. IF they are doing proper HDR, that's not free either. Never mind that you suggested the cars could even be 1 million, do you really expect them to max out the hardware to its theoretical ceiling? And then where does the tesselator come in, if at all (seems almost pointless). I say that if you can push 1 million polygons per car for eight cars, then why not push 500.000 per 16 cars, or why not 250.000 per 32? And why not tesselate the rest, if you can? I think if a car in Forza 3 uses 400.000 polygons max even just in photo-mode, that's a lot already.
Maybe I'm crazy, and I'm not the right person to discuss this anyway. But remember that even 200.000 polygons for both the interior and the exterior mentioned for GT5 was a maximum, with many cars needing much less than that, and GT5 rendering at a maximum of 1920x1080 in the car selection screen and 1280x1080 in-game.
@interference: initially Forza 2 released with no AA at all. Then adaptive AA up to 4x was added in a patch later. This means that depending on workload, more or less AA was used dynamically. It's not yet certain, but it seems that Forza 3 may have 2xAA at all times, which I think is better.
And why not tesselate the rest, if you can? I think if a car in Forza 3 uses 400.000 polygons max even just in photo-mode, that's a lot already.Maybe I'm crazy, and I'm not the right person to discuss this anyway. But remember that even 200.000 polygons for both the interior and the exterior mentioned for GT5 was a maximum, with many cars needing much less than that, and GT5 rendering at a maximum of 1920x1080 in the car selection screen and 1280x1080 in-game.
@interference: initially Forza 2 released with no AA at all. Then adaptive AA up to 4x was added in a patch later. This means that depending on workload, more or less AA was used dynamically. It's not yet certain, but it seems that Forza 3 may have 2xAA at all times, which I think is better.
Maybe the poor compression is there to hide aliasing, like a low pass filter. Anyone know how aggressive compression affects the frequency of the image?
(((interference)))
Veteran
Oh, so the 2xAA was only patched in later via an auto update? hmm.
I don't play Forza 2 online, so I might check and see whether that autoupdate is attached.
The list of game rendering resolutions in the Tech forum, simply states the game using 2xAA in game and 4xAA for the vehicle select menu and replays.
That's confusing as From what you said, it would seem the game is similar to Dead Rising which also has variable AA depending on load.
(((interference)))
Veteran
PS: does the variable AA in Forza 2 range (ingame) from 2x to 4x? or from 0x to 4x ?
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
Yes, so with 600k polys per car, that's 4,8m polygons per frame already just for the cars, which is about 5x the amount of pixels you draw on the screen, but ok. Then there's the track, you have to do AA. IF they are doing proper HDR, that's not free either. Never mind that you suggested the cars could even be 1 million, do you really expect them to max out the hardware to its theoretical ceiling? And then where does the tesselator come in, if at all (seems almost pointless). I say that if you can push 1 million polygons per car for eight cars, then why not push 500.000 per 16 cars, or why not 250.000 per 32?
Maybe I'm crazy, and I'm not the right person to discuss this anyway. But remember that even 200.000 polygons for both the interior and the exterior mentioned for GT5 was a maximum, with many cars needing much less than that, and GT5 rendering at a maximum of 1920x1080 in the car selection screen and 1280x1080 in-game.
i see, but because there are 8 cars on screen, wouldn't that mean each car can receive extra? i mean even the dials inside the car is pretty good. both in and out of race and show room mode.
i don't think that's the case, they got a few vids there that aren't so blocky.
you know I'd rather trade all these f-ing vids for a demo.
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Where? I thought GT was the first and they are worse.
COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
"couple" is the word i should have used.
and their quality is not as clear as having the actual demo.....but they're better looking then this new gameplay footage. (i wonder why the quality of the vid looks so GTish)
"dreams" and the vid that show cases the veryon are turn10's best quality vids in their inventory that show forza3's graphics. the other vid is "turn10 at le mans" which pretty good quality but shows no game play i believe.
so far only one 720p video of 60 fps gameplay in their selection of vids, and it's not all that great looking.....damn them.
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Silent_Buddha
Legend
OMG... PLEASE don't turn this into another FM3 versus GT5 thread...
Didn't we already have enough of that?
Just finished the Video.
Wow, you can see the reflection of your own car in the car ahead of you. Check out from 1:50 on. Reflections are definitely one of the best features of this game.
Road surface I still love but too much compression to really appreciate if it's high res or just a really good implementation at low res.
The bad...really really bad (for me). The aliasing is what keeps the PC platform as my gaming platform of choice. The compression artifacts are probably making in worse in some spots and better in others, but omg it's still distracting. And while GT5 may be worse with regards to aliasing, it's still distracting either way.
Regards,
SB
Didn't we already have enough of that?
Just finished the Video.
Wow, you can see the reflection of your own car in the car ahead of you. Check out from 1:50 on. Reflections are definitely one of the best features of this game.
Road surface I still love but too much compression to really appreciate if it's high res or just a really good implementation at low res.
The bad...really really bad (for me). The aliasing is what keeps the PC platform as my gaming platform of choice.
The compression artifacts are probably making in worse in some spots and better in others, but omg it's still distracting. And while GT5 may be worse with regards to aliasing, it's still distracting either way.Regards,
SB
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COPS N RAPPERS
Regular
in the "a lap around sedona raceway" at 01:09 you see a car reflecting on your car as well as reflecting inside of it (it's brief)......a feature that GT5 lacks in it's cockpit mode.
http://www.gamersyde.com/stream_gran_turismo_5_gamescom_cockpit_view_gameplay_60_fps-12539_en.html
It would be constantly changing depending on the amount of difference from frame to frame. I would expect that if the aliasing was being dropped as lost detail in some frames because of insufficient bitrate it would actually become more noticeable. As more detail is able to be retained for more similar frames (like for example the portion of this video in cockpit view with the rear of the car in front dominating the view) the aliasing would pop back in and then disappear again as the video moves on to feature more variability from frame to frame. I would expect this would tend to draw your eye to the aliasing more than if it was there all the time.
8000kbps is actually a pretty good bitrate for 1280X720 video...at 30fps or less. Because this video is 60fps, though, you are going to see some frames that look quite good and others looking quite bad.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
The only comment there was that whether FM2 has 2xAA or not, it's just as distracting as no AA on GT5. Since it appears that the post processing effects may be negating many of the gains from having 2xAA. How is that further turning this into a Vs. thread yet again.
I suppose since I wasn't directly praising GT5 it "must" be taken as "disrespecting" it.
Regards,
SB
How sure are you that FM2 shipped with no MSAA? I could be mistaken, but I thought it shipped with variable rate (announced in a Japanese article) between 1x (none) to 4x, later being patched upward.
(((interference)))
Veteran
But GT5 does have AA, even in 1080p mode (where it drops down to 2x).
If you find the jaggies in GT5P distracting, what did you think of Forza 2?
It's strange, cos if F3 is 720p 2xAA and GT5 in 720p mode has 4xAA, but you think GT5 looks worse then either you're playing in 1080p mode or Turn 10 is doing something else (post-processing?) to reduce aliasing
To me, from those videos F3 looks similar to GT5P with regards to aliasing despite Forza running with one level lower AA at the same resolution.
But that's from memory of GT5P running in 720p, tonight i'll play all 3 HD F3 vids on my PS3 and play my demo of Prologue at 720p and see if I can notice GT5's higher AA mode.
To me those vid's also show some dithering (sort of like what you get with GTA4 on 360), is that artifacting, due to the compression?
You can "disrespect" GT5 as much as you want, for all I care, I just don't like hypocrisy, unless I'm the one doing it.