30 fps unplayable on OLED, alternatives?

[Cyan]

If only I can stand the latency...


IIRC is here's only 1 brand, Panasonic that allows motion interpolation in game mode.

we are talking 30fps here. Can you notice a difference? I am not the most sensitive person to notice latency, but I can feel it when using the TV or the monitor to some extent, and I didnt notice a difference between Game Mode On and Movie/Filmmaker Mode picture settings (Movie I set it at max brightness for HDR content and Filmmaker Mode is the same as movie but I set the Brightness to 19 to save energy and general use).

Also, I kinda admire people who can see the black frame added by BFI or flickering. I haven't noticed any of that on my TV. Which is noticeable for me though, is how BFI decreases the display brightness.

 

[orangpelupa]

we are talking 30fps here. Can you notice a difference? I am not the most sensitive person to notice latency, but I can feel it when using the TV or the monitor to some extent, and I didnt notice a difference between Game Mode On and Movie/Filmmaker Mode picture settings (Movie I set it at max brightness for HDR content and Filmmaker Mode is the same as movie but I set the Brightness to 19 to save energy and general use).

Also, I kinda admire people who can see the black frame added by BFI or flickering. I haven't noticed any of that on my TV. Which is noticeable for me though, is how BFI decreases the display brightness.

Yes, it's easily noticeable.

But for some games, it is bearable.

 

[Cyan]

Yes, it's easily noticeable.

But for some games, it is bearable.

there are games like Redout 2 that run at a stable 60fps and with Judder Reduction at 10 and BFI they look like they run at much more fps.

Elden Ring is a pretty unstable game when it comes to fps. There are moments where running the game at 4K 60fps no Judder Reduction vs 4K 30fps + Judder Reduction at 10, the later seems to run much better.

 

[orangpelupa]

there are games like Redout 2 that run at a stable 60fps and with Judder Reduction at 10 and BFI they look like they run at much more fps.

Elden Ring is a pretty unstable game when it comes to fps. There are moments where running the game at 4K 60fps no Judder Reduction vs 4K 30fps + Judder Reduction at 10, the later seems to run much better.

the only game i am kinda okay without game mode is 3rd person rpg games. if its menu based turn based RPG, no tolerance at all. the cursors and clicks are way too laggy.

 

[Cyan]

I'd rather prefer to have BFI via software tbh. If my TV is set to Game Mode BFI is greyed out.

https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Black_frame_insertion

In RetroArch, there is an option for black frame insertion in the video options in the menu. This makes it draw an extra black frame for every frame and it succeeds in making the motion smooth at 120Hz. There is an option to set the vsync swap interval if you want to double frames instead. The "refresh rate" setting should be set to 60Hz (monitor refresh rate/2) for accurate dynamic rate control in these cases.

120Hz with software inserted black frames have less latency than doing so on the display's hardware. It also has less latency vs. displaying straight 60Hz due to the decreased frame times between vsync in emulators. It also doubles the performance requirements of an emulator to maintain vsync for the same reason.

BFI demo at Test Ufo. (30fps vs 30fps + BFI vs 60fps)

Blur Busters TestUFO Motion Tests

Blur Busters UFO Motion Tests with ghosting test, 30fps vs 60fps, 120hz vs 144hz vs 240hz, PWM test, motion blur test, judder test, benchmarks, and more.

www.testufo.com

 

[Scott_Arm]

I'd rather prefer to have BFI via software tbh. If my TV is set to Game Mode BFI is greyed out.

https://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Black_frame_insertion

In RetroArch, there is an option for black frame insertion in the video options in the menu. This makes it draw an extra black frame for every frame and it succeeds in making the motion smooth at 120Hz. There is an option to set the vsync swap interval if you want to double frames instead. The "refresh rate" setting should be set to 60Hz (monitor refresh rate/2) for accurate dynamic rate control in these cases.

120Hz with software inserted black frames have less latency than doing so on the display's hardware. It also has less latency vs. displaying straight 60Hz due to the decreased frame times between vsync in emulators. It also doubles the performance requirements of an emulator to maintain vsync for the same reason.

BFI demo at Test Ufo. (30fps vs 30fps + BFI vs 60fps)

Blur Busters TestUFO Motion Tests

Blur Busters UFO Motion Tests with ghosting test, 30fps vs 60fps, 120hz vs 144hz vs 240hz, PWM test, motion blur test, judder test, benchmarks, and more.

www.testufo.com

Software BFI might be cool on a 240Hz display so you can at least have 120 rendered frames.

 

[Cyan]

Software BFI might be cool on a 240Hz display so you can at least have 120 rendered frames.

now that you mention it, I wonder if it would be possible to add that feature in the GPU drivers so it is natively supported.

 

[Cyan]

the only game i am kinda okay without game mode is 3rd person rpg games. if its menu based turn based RPG, no tolerance at all. the cursors and clicks are way too laggy.

well, I tested Redout 2 on my 165Hz monitor and while past night I couldn't beat two tracks on my TV, I beat them on my monitor in the first try -and one track where I didn't manage to take first place, I also took the first place, although I didn't get 4 stars (the max)-. However I didn't notice any difference, lag wise. It was just that the game runs at 165Hz 1440p on my monitor with XeSS on, and the difference with 60fps is what caused that, I am sure.

 

[ZebMacahan]

BFI aside another thing to try is Judder Reduction -that's how Samsung calls it, under Picture Clarity Settings-. It works wonders in games. I locked Elden Ring to 30fps and tried with Game Mode on, the framerate was unbearable.

Then I set Game Mode to Off and I switched to regular Picture Settings; Movie (also with Filmmaker Mode). I first tried with Judder Reduction at 0. There wasn't much of a change of course.

Finally, I set the Judder Reduction to the max value, 10. And boy, the difference was staggering. In fact with animations where the camera doesn't turn around it could easily pass for a 60Hz game. If you rotate the camera, of course the movement isn't as smooth, but it's much much smoother than 30fps.

I tried some judder reduction in the standard mode, but even with low values like 2 theres alot of input lag.

 

[Scott_Arm]

judder reduction is super useless for gaming. It'll make the experience way worse. Just lower your settings to play at a higher frame rate and get 60 fps, or if on console set the game to performance mode. If the game is locked at 30 fps then refund it or throw it in the trash where it belongs

 

[Cyan]

I tried some judder reduction in the standard mode, but even with low values like 2 theres alot of input lag.

how much does it affect 30fps gaming though? My TV doesn't have any lag from judder reduction at max even.

 

[orangpelupa]

how much does it affect 30fps gaming though? My TV doesn't have any lag from judder reduction at max even.

So I've been thinking, maybe you have high lag tolerance?
I've read somewhere that most people games on TV with game mode disabled, and try are fine with that, iirc.

 

[Cyan]

So I've been thinking, maybe you have high lag tolerance?
I've read somewhere that most people games on TV with game mode disabled, and try are fine with that, iirc.

perhaps... Can you notice the black frames from BFI? 'Cos I can't, although brightness is cut in half on my TV and I notice that.

Do you notice framerate differences from 60fps on? I do, even on the mouse movement, once you get used to that. Also what I notice is that my monitor is much more responsive even when the TV is set to Game Mode.

That being said, in Elden Ring if I lock the game to 30fps, with Game Mode enabled on the TV, the game is so choppy I can't play. Without game mode, and judder reduction at max (10) -even if BFI is not enabled-, the game's animations seem to run at 60fps. It's just when the camera turn around that it doens't look like native 60fps, but it's much better than 30fps + Game Mode on.

With BFI I don't notice much of a difference in smoothness, but I like to enable it for 30fps games and also youtube videos seem to play much smoother.

 

[Nesh]

How do you turn on BFI on a B9 TV?

 

[Cynicalking]

How do you turn on BFI on a B9 TV?

Its caled "Oled Motion" in the trumotion settings.

 

[ZebMacahan]

how much does it affect 30fps gaming though? My TV doesn't have any lag from judder reduction at max even.

I can have it about 2 maybe, then the lag gets too much. What TV do you have?

 

[ZebMacahan]

have you managed to find a solution?

Modern TVs usually have some judder reduction techniques, and they do the job, it's a bit like DLSS 3 -obvious differences aside-. I discovered I had that on my TV yesterday, and locked a couple of games to 30fps 4K to see how they run.

Also, these picture settings -with a few personal touches- worked really good for me (the reply from the [deleted] account. So easy on the eyes, yet beautiful.

https://www.reddit.com/r/samsung/comments/qmpyku

I got a Samsung for our bedroom. My GFs TV was like ten years old or more, so that was I good excuse to get another one.
I think I need to change some tv settings though, because the picture is really washed out, with a bunch of clouding and other artifacts, at least in dark scenes. Makes me appriceate my OLED more =)

30 fps is definently smoother, I had to turn of motion blur because frames got smeared togehter anyway.

I think theres something about the callisto protocol which makes it hard to look at in 30 fps no matter what. I suspect it has something to do with the camera animations, or the closeness to the character or something? Maybe all the detail or the dark environments.

 

[Cyan]

I can have it about 2 maybe, then the lag gets too much. What TV do you have?

Samsung Q80A. Here in Europe all models are VA, if they weren't I wouldn't buy it. OLED would be better but the HDR on this TV is pretty good so...

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/q80-q80a-qled

As for 30fps and The Callisto Protocol, I can't test that game because I don't have it. I had Dead Space back in the day via EA Play but it wasn't my thing.

Judder Reduction is the setting that made 30fps bearable to me. BFI is fine although yes, peak brightness is like halved -at least on my TV, dunno about other models-. Some people just don't stand high peak brightness so to each its own. I usually prefer a low peak brightness too, and some 24 y.o. guy who was studying with me years ago was really super hardcore about that, he used to have brightness set to 15 out of 100 in the class' monitor. Thus BFI is fine with me, and anything that reduces the power consumption of my TV, is good imho.

There is also a setting for noise reduction to avoid any flickering and it also works wonders it seems. Whether I enabled or disabled it I didn't notice any flickering anyways, so I leave it at Auto, or even Off.

 

[ZebMacahan]

Samsung Q80A. Here in Europe all models are VA, if they weren't I wouldn't buy it. OLED would be better but the HDR on this TV is pretty good so...

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/q80-q80a-qled

As for 30fps and The Callisto Protocol, I can't test that game because I don't have it. I had Dead Space back in the day via EA Play but it wasn't my thing.

Judder Reduction is the setting that made 30fps bearable to me. BFI is fine although yes, peak brightness is like halved -at least on my TV, dunno about other models-. Some people just don't stand high peak brightness so to each its own. I usually prefer a low peak brightness too, and some 24 y.o. guy who was studying with me years ago was really super hardcore about that, he used to have brightness set to 15 out of 100 in the class' monitor. Thus BFI is fine with me, and anything that reduces the power consumption of my TV, is good imho.

There is also a setting for noise reduction to avoid any flickering and it also works wonders it seems. Whether I enabled or disabled it I didn't notice any flickering anyways, so I leave it at Auto, or even Off.

Thanks for the info!
BFI seem to help a bit I think. It seem to help my eyes track moving objects i think, or maybe thats just placebo.
I tried setting the de-judder at 3, but arround artifacts and input lag becomes more apparent. I think callistos sometimes fast moving camera during certain moves doesnt help either.

What does the noise reduction do exaclty? I never messed around with it because i want to keep lag down.

 

[ZebMacahan]

Has anyone compared 40 fps on an OLED to 30 fps on an LCD?