30 fps unplayable on OLED, alternatives?

Perhaps going with the OLED was a mistake. I bought it mainly for gaming.

Have any of you guys compared modern LCD TVs to OLED when gaming, and how does the motion feel, espacially 30 fps?
 
Perhaps going with the OLED was a mistake. I bought it mainly for gaming.

Have any of you guys compared modern LCD TVs to OLED when gaming, and how does the motion feel, espacially 30 fps?

me

30fps looks blurrier but less stuttery on IPS and VA LCD. Dunno on TN, i no longer have TV.

actually not just 30fps. 60fps also looks smoother on IPS and VA LCD. albeit the difference is quite small.

at least to my eyes, and 30 fps between LCD vs OLED is pretty obvious. While at 60fps, need to get accustomed to LCD for quite awhile (more than 15 minutes) and go back to OLED to see the difference.

doesnt work when OLED 15minutes then back to LCD.

dunno why. also not sure if its just placebo with 60fps lcd vs oled

EDIT:
actually "blurrier 30fps on LCD" is not the right word... its more like.... uh... less clear.. like things are getting duplicated or fuzzier depending if i blinks a lot quickly, and/or following the camera movements with my eyes.

and now i cant stop from conciously needing to blink...
 
me

30fps looks blurrier but less stuttery on IPS and VA LCD. Dunno on TN, i no longer have TV.

actually not just 30fps. 60fps also looks smoother on IPS and VA LCD. albeit the difference is quite small.

at least to my eyes, and 30 fps between LCD vs OLED is pretty obvious. While at 60fps, need to get accustomed to LCD for quite awhile (more than 15 minutes) and go back to OLED to see the difference.

doesnt work when OLED 15minutes then back to LCD.

dunno why. also not sure if its just placebo with 60fps lcd vs oled

EDIT:
actually "blurrier 30fps on LCD" is not the right word... its more like.... uh... less clear.. like things are getting duplicated or fuzzier depending if i blinks a lot quickly, and/or following the camera movements with my eyes.

and now i cant stop from conciously needing to blink...

I was watching simpsons on my GFs old LCD last night and I thought I almost could see frames blening together. I might have been imagining after reading about this stuff.
 
Dark games/film should have some blur (smearing) because OLED pixel response with black. But bright and white are going to strobe at low frame rate. That annoys me most with film.

Unplayable is not the word I would use. The super fast response time is welcome for the most part. I don't miss the smearing colors of older LCD TVs. But of course 60 fps is better.

Sometimes I miss my old plasma TV though because I feel like perfect black causes gamma problems with some games. And it had more variety of inputs! Miss that component and VGA.
 
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Seems you guys might be right. It never bothered me, but I did sense it. It was normal for me. But I am actually much more sensitive with playing fighting games.
They are 60fps of course. But I do notice that something is different with how I perceive the motion/reading of the animations. With fighting games reading and fast reaction is paramount.
So when I play Tekken 7 on my OLED something just seems different. Surely it is smooth, but for whatever reason whenever I play Tekken for example on a PC monitor, the motion seems smoother and my enemy attacks are much easier for me to read. On my OLED it is like there are missing frames in comparison. I dont know how to explain it. It is smooth but not exactly.
So by the time my brain sees the beginning of the attack and tries to interpret it's final direction before it gets there, there is "missing" information between each frame and I miss the reading. So I find it more difficult to respond to some super fast attacks, which is super easy when I play the same game on a PC monitor, which for whatever reason seems smoother at 60fps than the same game running 60fps on my OLED

I guess OLED works too perfectly well for its own good.

This is down to timing. LCD's have slower pixel response times (hence why things lose so much resolution with fast motion) while OLED has really fast pixel response times. This leads to a few things if you regularly try switching between action on an LCD and action on an OLED. That's something I can do quite easily since I have a dual screen setup on my gaming PC with one OLED screen and one LCD with pixel response times that are fast for an LCD but slow for an OLED.

What happens is that the whole input -> input feedback loop is faster on OLED than on LCD. This can subtly throw your timing off if you are trying to do something that require frame perfect timing like a fighting game. If you play on LCD a lot your brain kind of adjusts to the delay that you see. If you then switch to an OLED screen, your timings for reacting to what you see will be slightly off.

So, if I play something on the OLED screen for say a day then play the same action game on my LCD, everything will be slightly off. Play on LCD for a day and then play the same game on OLED and my timing will be off. Things like precision jumping in a platformer or precise timed aiming in an FPS will be thrown off when moving from one to the other.

Once you adjust, however, OLED will give you a slight competitive advantage.

Perhaps going with the OLED was a mistake. I bought it mainly for gaming.

Have any of you guys compared modern LCD TVs to OLED when gaming, and how does the motion feel, espacially 30 fps?

IMO, the OLED is still superior for gaming (for me) even if I had to suffer through 30 FPS games just due to the increased motion clarity (significantly higher motion resolution than LCD. For example, a 1080p game can drop to as low as 240p, 360p, 480p when there's motion on screen depending on how fast the motion is and the quality of the LCD panel. While that can make motion potentially appear smoother (it doesn't for me, but I have some friends who say it does for them) I can't stand the loss of resolution in motion.

And if you play a lot of competitive games, OLED will give a slight advantage over using an LCD due to both motion clarity and faster response times. Not all people can take advantage of that, however, so YMMV.

Again, I'd just suggest trying it yourself if you can before buying another display. Everyone's visual processing system (eyes and brain) processes things differently so what works for one person may not work for another. What one finds good another might not find good.

Regards,
SB
 
30 fps games of course feel choppier on my OLED, but I got used to it. The surge of 60-120fps games on the latest consoles definitely had an effect on my tolerance, though, when playing higher fps games for a while and going back to 30fps ones its almost intolerable but I get used to it to the point I don't mind it after a while.
 
30 fps games of course feel choppier on my OLED, but I got used to it. The surge of 60-120fps games on the latest consoles definitely had an effect on my tolerance, though, when playing higher fps games for a while and going back to 30fps ones its almost intolerable but I get used to it to the point I don't mind it after a while.
you get used to it to some extent yes. But it's tough. I explained why I prefer higher framerates than 4K nowadays, even if I have a 4K 120Hz TV.

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...l-discussion-2022.62678/page-139#post-2277649

Be it for monitors or TVs, this is the best test to see if a TV or monitor is up for the task when it comes to framerate. The more fps the more mouse arrows you gotta see, this is the test I use to know when a screen is legit.

 
This is down to timing. LCD's have slower pixel response times (hence why things lose so much resolution with fast motion) while OLED has really fast pixel response times. This leads to a few things if you regularly try switching between action on an LCD and action on an OLED. That's something I can do quite easily since I have a dual screen setup on my gaming PC with one OLED screen and one LCD with pixel response times that are fast for an LCD but slow for an OLED.

What happens is that the whole input -> input feedback loop is faster on OLED than on LCD. This can subtly throw your timing off if you are trying to do something that require frame perfect timing like a fighting game. If you play on LCD a lot your brain kind of adjusts to the delay that you see. If you then switch to an OLED screen, your timings for reacting to what you see will be slightly off.

So, if I play something on the OLED screen for say a day then play the same action game on my LCD, everything will be slightly off. Play on LCD for a day and then play the same game on OLED and my timing will be off. Things like precision jumping in a platformer or precise timed aiming in an FPS will be thrown off when moving from one to the other.

Once you adjust, however, OLED will give you a slight competitive advantage.
I play 95% of the time on my OLED when it comes to fighting games so I dont regularly switch. Its not really a matter of timing what I m observing though. It is a matter of how my eyes/brain are able to read the motions. The more the (illussion of) "perceived" frames the more complete the animation appears, the easier I can read directions.
If I play for days on an OLED and switch to a PC monitor for example lets say Tekken 7, my brain reads my opponents movements easier and look smoother on the latter instantly. Animation just appear fuller to my brain.
 
So what you want is a panel with slower response time so there is some blur because that acts as a form of interpolation.
 
What you are experiencing is a motion stutter induced by judder combined with superior response time yet still mediocre motion resolution at the same time.

A judder is a serious issue for me on OLED TV gaming as well. A gaming judder is whatever situation game engine's current frame rate not matching displays's native refresh rate. So for example if you are using an 60Hz OLED, anything under 60 FPS, you will start to notice judder. Judders come in various shapes and forms, (seeing as a 24Hz judder is also a huge problem for movies as well) but the most common in regards to consoles is 'Double Frame Judder", meaning 30 FPS games will not just get displayed on display 1:1, instead, a duplicate frame will be created. CRTs could get away this back in the day because of under 1ms superior response time combined with also under 1ms hold time (MSRT), providing consistent motion clarity, judders were hard to identify for many people. Plasmas could too as well, with 1ms of response time with 1.5ms MSRT hold time, though not as effective as CRTs. LCDs were the reverse. They typically have poor hold time (16.7ms MSRT @ 60Hz) but because their response time is also slow, they could not only combat judder better due to said consistency, but also better at masking judder due to blur. However, OLED's are anything but consistent. They have vastly superior response time of 1ms, yet same hold time as LCDs, creating a huge gulf when it comes to judder, and because of superior response time, OLEDs cannot mask it like LCDs, instead judders will be so clear to viewers.

If you plan on staying on your OLED, your only solution is to simply play in performance mode which I am doing with my Panasonic GZ2000 OLED as well. While my Panasonic combats 24Hz, 30Hz judders better than LG, it's still a far cry from my Pioneer Kuro 101FD plasma I got a few months ago. No amounts of BFI will help and VRRs will not likely help due to minimum required refresh rate as 40Hz, meaning you will still get double frame judder. For 40Hz supporting games like Ratchet and Clank, VRR is excellent on your LG though. Normally, 40Hz output will still induce "Triple Judder (A la N64 Ocarina of time which had 20 FPS)" due to still being in 120Hz container, but applying VRR will map refresh rate equal to your current frame rate to 1:1, eliminating judder. However, we all know there are way too few 40Hz games. Your only other choice in OLED world could be the Samsung S95B which can perform frame interpolation under game mode with minimum latency increase. Normally, frame interpolation for games is a big no no as it adds huge latency (about 120ms for my Panny OLED) , but the Samsung's are the only exception. It's still not perfect as it adds posterization. (same applies to Samsung's LCD models)

The best outcome for consoles is to have frame interpolating reconstruction something like DLSS 3.0 so that 120 FPS gaming can be mainstream. The other alternatives are simply not ideal. BFI cuts on HDR brightness, same with VRR for PS5 ( ), though not as serious as engaging in BFI. Frame rate interpolation increases latency along with other issues. Current gen is transitional in a sense while it may be ready for 4K resolution, DCI color gamut, HDR, and 120Hz feature level, 30Hz game modes are still best served by older displays such as plasmas, so I do not even think of touching quality mode on my OLED TV with a ten feet pole. Heck, I even play in performance mode on my Pioneer plasma, despite plasmas being spectacular handling ray tracing due to also having great black level, 30 FPS is simply a no no for me in 2022.
 
What you are experiencing is a motion stutter induced by judder combined with superior response time yet still mediocre motion resolution at the same time.

A judder is a serious issue for me on OLED TV gaming as well. A gaming judder is whatever situation game engine's current frame rate not matching displays's native refresh rate. So for example if you are using an 60Hz OLED, anything under 60 FPS, you will start to notice judder. Judders come in various shapes and forms, (seeing as a 24Hz judder is also a huge problem for movies as well) but the most common in regards to consoles is 'Double Frame Judder", meaning 30 FPS games will not just get displayed on display 1:1, instead, a duplicate frame will be created. CRTs could get away this back in the day because of under 1ms superior response time combined with also under 1ms hold time (MSRT), providing consistent motion clarity, judders were hard to identify for many people. Plasmas could too as well, with 1ms of response time with 1.5ms MSRT hold time, though not as effective as CRTs. LCDs were the reverse. They typically have poor hold time (16.7ms MSRT @ 60Hz) but because their response time is also slow, they could not only combat judder better due to said consistency, but also better at masking judder due to blur. However, OLED's are anything but consistent. They have vastly superior response time of 1ms, yet same hold time as LCDs, creating a huge gulf when it comes to judder, and because of superior response time, OLEDs cannot mask it like LCDs, instead judders will be so clear to viewers.

If you plan on staying on your OLED, your only solution is to simply play in performance mode which I am doing with my Panasonic GZ2000 OLED as well. While my Panasonic combats 24Hz, 30Hz judders better than LG, it's still a far cry from my Pioneer Kuro 101FD plasma I got a few months ago. No amounts of BFI will help and VRRs will not likely help due to minimum required refresh rate as 40Hz, meaning you will still get double frame judder. For 40Hz supporting games like Ratchet and Clank, VRR is excellent on your LG though. Normally, 40Hz output will still induce "Triple Judder (A la N64 Ocarina of time which had 20 FPS)" due to still being in 120Hz container, but applying VRR will map refresh rate equal to your current frame rate to 1:1, eliminating judder. However, we all know there are way too few 40Hz games. Your only other choice in OLED world could be the Samsung S95B which can perform frame interpolation under game mode with minimum latency increase. Normally, frame interpolation for games is a big no no as it adds huge latency (about 120ms for my Panny OLED) , but the Samsung's are the only exception. It's still not perfect as it adds posterization. (same applies to Samsung's LCD models)

The best outcome for consoles is to have frame interpolating reconstruction something like DLSS 3.0 so that 120 FPS gaming can be mainstream. The other alternatives are simply not ideal. BFI cuts on HDR brightness, same with VRR for PS5 ( ), though not as serious as engaging in BFI. Frame rate interpolation increases latency along with other issues. Current gen is transitional in a sense while it may be ready for 4K resolution, DCI color gamut, HDR, and 120Hz feature level, 30Hz game modes are still best served by older displays such as plasmas, so I do not even think of touching quality mode on my OLED TV with a ten feet pole. Heck, I even play in performance mode on my Pioneer plasma, despite plasmas being spectacular handling ray tracing due to also having great black level, 30 FPS is simply a no no for me in 2022.
Wow really curious now. I have VRR switched on even for unsupported games, and HDR turned on by default at all times. So now I wonder if my TV's image/HDR quality is affected by this by default.

1670312133323.png
 
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VRRs will not likely help due to minimum required refresh rate as 40Hz

someone on some forum managed to expand LG CX VRR range down to 30hz, by using CRU.

although with FRC, not sure expanded VRR range is needed. as FRC kicks in, making 30fps still works with VRR.

or xbox and ps didnt support FRC?
 
Wow really curious now. I have VRR switched on even for unsupported games, and HDR turned on by default at all times. So now I wonder if my TV's image/HDR quality is affected by this by default.

View attachment 7681
I don't think this is true. I think maybe black levels get mismatched on some people's TVs when engaging 120hz or VRR modes and it washes out the image. I see no difference in brightness using both VRR and 120hz on PS5 and PC.
 
someone on some forum managed to expand LG CX VRR range down to 30hz, by using CRU.

although with FRC, not sure expanded VRR range is needed. as FRC kicks in, making 30fps still works with VRR.

or xbox and ps didnt support FRC?

IIRC - Xbox Series supports it but it has to be implemented by the developer.

On PS5 they also support something like that, however not only does the developer have to implement it but the display that the PS5 is hooked up to has to be a 120 Hz display and the PS5 has to be setup to output 120 Hz.

Regards,
SB
 
IIRC - Xbox Series supports it but it has to be implemented by the developer.
I don't think it requires any explicit developer support on Xbox Series consoles. That's why it seemed such an odd thing seeing the hoops they require on PS5.
 
I don't think it requires any explicit developer support on Xbox Series consoles. That's why it seemed such an odd thing seeing the hoops they require on PS5.
Maybe Alex in DF can jump but what I took fro the DF analysis was that PS5's VRR implementation is industry standard, operating between 48Hz to 120Hz - the same as Xbox. What Xbox offers that PS5 does not is Low Framerate Compensation (LFC). What Sony supports on 120Hz TVs is an output for 40fps by showing each frame for three frames on a 120hz display.

All of this requires support by thd dev because on a fixed rate, whatever is in the target frame is output to the display regardless of whether it's finished, whereas in a VRR arrangement, you 'dispatch' each frame once completely rendered.
 
What you are experiencing is a motion stutter induced by judder combined with superior response time yet still mediocre motion resolution at the same time.

A judder is a serious issue for me on OLED TV gaming as well. A gaming judder is whatever situation game engine's current frame rate not matching displays's native refresh rate. So for example if you are using an 60Hz OLED, anything under 60 FPS, you will start to notice judder. Judders come in various shapes and forms, (seeing as a 24Hz judder is also a huge problem for movies as well) but the most common in regards to consoles is 'Double Frame Judder", meaning 30 FPS games will not just get displayed on display 1:1, instead, a duplicate frame will be created. CRTs could get away this back in the day because of under 1ms superior response time combined with also under 1ms hold time (MSRT), providing consistent motion clarity, judders were hard to identify for many people. Plasmas could too as well, with 1ms of response time with 1.5ms MSRT hold time, though not as effective as CRTs. LCDs were the reverse. They typically have poor hold time (16.7ms MSRT @ 60Hz) but because their response time is also slow, they could not only combat judder better due to said consistency, but also better at masking judder due to blur. However, OLED's are anything but consistent. They have vastly superior response time of 1ms, yet same hold time as LCDs, creating a huge gulf when it comes to judder, and because of superior response time, OLEDs cannot mask it like LCDs, instead judders will be so clear to viewers.

If you plan on staying on your OLED, your only solution is to simply play in performance mode which I am doing with my Panasonic GZ2000 OLED as well. While my Panasonic combats 24Hz, 30Hz judders better than LG, it's still a far cry from my Pioneer Kuro 101FD plasma I got a few months ago. No amounts of BFI will help and VRRs will not likely help due to minimum required refresh rate as 40Hz, meaning you will still get double frame judder. For 40Hz supporting games like Ratchet and Clank, VRR is excellent on your LG though. Normally, 40Hz output will still induce "Triple Judder (A la N64 Ocarina of time which had 20 FPS)" due to still being in 120Hz container, but applying VRR will map refresh rate equal to your current frame rate to 1:1, eliminating judder. However, we all know there are way too few 40Hz games. Your only other choice in OLED world could be the Samsung S95B which can perform frame interpolation under game mode with minimum latency increase. Normally, frame interpolation for games is a big no no as it adds huge latency (about 120ms for my Panny OLED) , but the Samsung's are the only exception. It's still not perfect as it adds posterization. (same applies to Samsung's LCD models)

The best outcome for consoles is to have frame interpolating reconstruction something like DLSS 3.0 so that 120 FPS gaming can be mainstream. The other alternatives are simply not ideal. BFI cuts on HDR brightness, same with VRR for PS5 ( ), though not as serious as engaging in BFI. Frame rate interpolation increases latency along with other issues. Current gen is transitional in a sense while it may be ready for 4K resolution, DCI color gamut, HDR, and 120Hz feature level, 30Hz game modes are still best served by older displays such as plasmas, so I do not even think of touching quality mode on my OLED TV with a ten feet pole. Heck, I even play in performance mode on my Pioneer plasma, despite plasmas being spectacular handling ray tracing due to also having great black level, 30 FPS is simply a no no for me in 2022.
This is incorrect. It's not a PS5 issue. Some TVs (older ones obvs) have issues with raised black levels when VRR is turned on.

On my TV (Sony A95K) VRR mode looks the same as every other mode, as it should.

It's not a PS5 issue.
 
IMO, the OLED is still superior for gaming (for me) even if I had to suffer through 30 FPS games just due to the increased motion clarity (significantly higher motion resolution than LCD. For example, a 1080p game can drop to as low as 240p, 360p, 480p when there's motion on screen depending on how fast the motion is and the quality of the LCD panel. While that can make motion potentially appear smoother (it doesn't for me, but I have some friends who say it does for them) I can't stand the loss of resolution in motion.

And if you play a lot of competitive games, OLED will give a slight advantage over using an LCD due to both motion clarity and faster response times. Not all people can take advantage of that, however, so YMMV.

Again, I'd just suggest trying it yourself if you can before buying another display. Everyone's visual processing system (eyes and brain) processes things differently so what works for one person may not work for another. What one finds good another might not find good.

Regards,
SB

Yes, people seem to react differently. I play almost exclusively singel player games so super fast respons times isnt as important to me to somebody who play competitive games. The loss of resolution is worth it for me if it means I can plays 30 fps without getting headaches.

Thanks for the tips!
 
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