3 year warranty for all X360s.

[Cheezdoodles]

think the ring o' death basically tells you MS knew about all these problems before it started shipping them.

Knowing MS to be the ship it now, fix it later company they are in the PC space, I'd go with the latter.

I certainly haven't seen another console with specific error lights, and to me it suggests "we know these things might happen quite regually"

Doesn't 4 mean it's cooked itself for example?

3, mild dose of overheating maybe not fatal?

4 reds means you haven't properly connected your AV cable.
3 means hardware failure.
2 means your console is starting to overheat (turn it off)
1 means software failure.

Im not so sure if they knew it was going to brake down to pieces all the time just because they have 4 indicators to the end user of what is wrong. Its not at all like you implied, that the four different indicators are all showing different hardware failures.

Those four indicators probably save a lot time for the Xbox Support Call Centre.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Those four indicators probably save a lot time for the Xbox Support Call Centre.

I can sort of agree with that, except for 2 lights. A console overheating is surely a design fault? In ordinary use, it won't overheat if designed properly. For 1 light, a software failure is pretty obvious when it happens with one title and not others. I can appreciate the light for the naive Joe Public, also with the AV cable, but in total, I don't see the need for four lights. Number 2 shouldn't exist. Number three is a given - if it don't turn on, it's a hardware fault!

That said, the choices do make sense from a service POV. Person rings up, and the most common faults will be

1) They haven't plugged it in properly - cleared by presence of lights
2) They haven't connected it to the TV properly - solved with 4 lights
3) The software is balked - 1 light
4) The machine is actually bust - 3 lights

Without the lights, it'll be a lot more effort on the part of support to ascertain if the user has plugged it in right and knows which end of the AV cable to plug into which box. Indicating 1 and 2 above makes sense I think, although it'd only need an indicator on the AV side. I suppose number three in that list is needed for when someone has one software crash and is instantly on the blower to support because they don't understand technology.

But 2 lights still perturbs me. Consoles overheating is a 'does not computer' in my book. How many CE devices come with a warning that they may overheat? How many devices do actually overheat and would have been saved with a warning?

 

[infinity4]

perhaps better to force 2 Ring of light than to make user fail its 360 which forces microsoft to fix it?

just have been reading some news on 360 defects, the support is a joke! they tell customer all sorts of stuff that make 360 cause problems (ie exposure to sunlight cause disc scratches). how weak is 360 itself

 

[scooby_dooby]

I can sort of agree with that, except for 2 lights. A console overheating is surely a design fault? In ordinary use, it won't overheat if designed properly.

'Ordinary use' would entail following the instruction in the manual right??

It's writted in big bold letters, not to store the console in an enclosed area. That could be why the overheating error was built in, in case of user error.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I can sort of agree with that, except for 2 lights. A console overheating is surely a design fault? In ordinary use, it won't overheat if designed properly.

In ordinary use, it doesn't overheat. Put a tower around it however, and it will. Or put it in a place where it cannot "breathe" properly.

But 2 lights still perturbs me. Consoles overheating is a 'does not computer' in my book. How many CE devices come with a warning that they may overheat? How many devices do actually overheat and would have been saved with a warning?

Actually, all my PC's have varius warnings about overheating. If it gets to hot, it will even shut down. Also, im sure if you read the manual for a PC, it will say "do not cover the ventilations because it may overheat the pc, or something similar".

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm perplexed that this is an issue though. Is user error likely to be that prevalent? A few, sure. But enough to include a pointer for support? If so, they must be knowingly pushing the thing very close to it's thermal maximum such that a bit of user error can kill it. There must be plenty of other CE devices not being cared for properly but which soldier on. I guess we'll never have figures on this though. I'm very curious how many devices die from overheating. Other misuses, like putting jam in the air vents or playing football with it, I can understand, but I can't imagine overheating being that much of a problem. It wasn't for PS2, PS3 or Wii or GC or XB, was it? Nor laptops (except with Sony batteries ). These are used by the same people who'll use or abuse to the same degree. Maybe they did kill their XB's and PS2, and MS thought to record the difference so they didn't have their time wasted? That'd be quite a damning indictment of the buying public!

Actually, all my PC's have varius warnings about overheating. If it gets to hot, it will even shut down.

Sure, but aren't those there for OCers and DIYers? I have my PC bleep because the heatsink I attached myself wasn't on properly, but I wouldn't expect that from a 'proper' PC. Do Dell PCs start bleeping at their owners to shut them down because they're getting too hot? I guess computing has moved more in that direction, and XB360 is just the first console to move with it. Though as a CE device rather than computer, it should be more robust.

 

[scooby_dooby]

I'm perplexed that this is an issue though. Is user error likely to be that prevalent? A few, sure. But enough to include a pointer for support? If so, they must be knowingly pushing the thing very close to it's thermal maximum such that a bit of user error can kill it. There must be plenty of other CE devices not being cared for properly but which soldier on. I guess we'll never have figures on this though. I'm very curious how many devices die from overheating. Other misuses, like putting jam in the air vents or playing football with it, I can understand, but I can't imagine overheating being that much of a problem. It wasn't for PS2, PS3 or Wii or GC or XB, was it? Nor laptops (except with Sony batteries ). These are used by the same people who'll use or abuse to the same degree. Maybe they did kill their XB's and PS2, and MS thought to record the difference so they didn't have their time wasted? That'd be quite a damning indictment of the buying public!

I'm sure it's just a matter of MS identifying the most *probable* problem with the system and including a specific error message for that.

That way, when someone calls into tech support, complaining about the 2 red flashign lights, MS can easily diagnose the problem over the phone, rather than having to have the system sent in.

Seems likely that they had 4 lights, givign tehm teh capacity for custom messages, so they decided to implement a slightly more robust error system.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I'm perplexed that this is an issue though. Is user error likely to be that prevalent? A few, sure. But enough to include a pointer for support?

Dude, have you like ever read a manual? They have to mention all kinds of things, to cover themselves legally. My microwave manual says "Do not attempt to dry animals with your Miele microwave." Im sure this is not a big problem, but it still there.

Nor laptops (except with Sony batteries ).

My Dell laptop died from overheating because it was left on the bed turned on with a game running (it vasnt covered, it just that sheets heat up aswell and not enough ventilations etc.)

Do Dell PCs start bleeping at their owners to shut them down because they're getting too hot? I guess computing has moved more in that direction, and XB360 is just the first console to move with it.

Actually, they do. Warning messages pop up, and it will turn itself down.

Though as a CE device rather than computer, it should be more robust.

Legally, these consoles are counted as computers (atleast in europe).

I'm not sure where your trying to go with this, yes the reliability rate on this things is terrible, just because they have a indicators of varius things doesn't mean they knowingly shipped a ****ed up consoles.

Btw, You are aware that the PS3 also has varius failure indicators? Even for OVERHEATING. OMG OMG OMG something must be wrong!! GAAAAH.

1. If the power indicator on the PLAYSTATION®3 is flashing red and green alternately:
The interior of the system has become unusually hot. Check whether the system is being used in a hot location or whether the vents are blocked. Stop using the system and leave it unused until it cools down. Continuing to use the system in the above condition will cause it to stop functioning.

2. If the power indicator is flashing red and the system does not operate:
The temperature inside the system has risen too high. Check whether the system is being used in a hot location or whether the vents are blocked. Touch the system's power button to stop the flashing, and then leave the system unused until it cools down. After it cools down, turn on the system again.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I'm not sure where your trying to go with this

I'm discussing things. I'm putting out ideas and asking questions to learn about stuff.

Btw, You are aware that the PS3 also has varius failure indicators? Even for OVERHEATING. OMG OMG OMG something must be wrong!! GAAAAH.

Why all the fuss? Why not try being mature for once and enter the discussion in the spirit with which it's being held? I'm asking questions, and pointing out it could be different possibilities to learn which one is right. A simple 'Yes, CE goods can overheat. Even PS3 has a warning in the manual' answers the question without being derogatory. I wasn't happy with the idea of a CE device having built in warnings about overheating, but now I understand it's not such a big deal. I'm smarter now. Just because I'm not right in every single thought I ever have, doesn't mean I'm hammering on agendas and trying to 'go places' with discussion, same with a lot of folk. Please stop treating people who are wrong as being either stupid or trouble makers.

 

[ninzel]

Oi vay, not sure if this has been posted but it can't be for their image.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=26770

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I'm discussing things. I'm putting out ideas and asking questions to learn about stuff.

No you and DJ12 are making crazed theories.

Why all the fuss? Why not try being mature for once and enter the discussion in the spirit with which it's being held? I'm asking questions, and pointing out it could be different possibilities to learn which one is right. A simple 'Yes, CE goods can overheat. Even PS3 has a warning in the manual' answers the question without being derogatory. I wasn't happy with the idea of a CE device having built in warnings about overheating, but now I understand it's not such a big deal. I'm smarter now. Just because I'm not right in every single thought I ever have, doesn't mean I'm hammering on agendas and trying to 'go places' with discussion, same with a lot of folk. Please stop treating people who are wrong as being either stupid or trouble makers.

Shifty, if you look at your post, it certainly does look like your trying to "go somewhere" and that you have an agenda.

I mean, your making bold statements that this and that indicator shouldn't exist bla bla bla. Your not putting out ideas, your making statements that are seem absolute. Like this one:

". But enough to include a pointer for support? If so, they must be knowingly pushing the thing very close to it's thermal maximum such that a bit of user error can kill it."

This is not an idea. This is presenting a your own theory as a fact. So is most of your statements, in fact the general trend of your discussion is presenting your own viewpoints as facts, no matter if you have any clue about what your talking about or not.

And im sorry if you where just ignorant about this whole situation (with CE good actually overheating and having warnings for it) but the way i figured:anybody who lives in an industrialized country and is regularly buying consumer electronics, would by now have seen all kinds of warning indicators and warnings for items, so if you manage to start making crazed theories about this, your surely have an agenda of some sort, or your an ignorant. And i did not believe that your an ignorant.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Shifty, if you look at your post, it certainly does look like your trying to "go somewhere" and that you have an agenda.

Seriously, my post was my thinking out loud. Reading it again, I see that those statements can be read in a different voice as more assertive than they are, but that's not my style! My 'bold statements' are thoughts about what I think is the case (at the time of writing). Basically you could stick a question mark on the end of each of those sentences to get a better representation of my tone of voice when writing!

Edit : Also, the questions were sincere and not rhetorical, which is something written English can't convey, but which makes a big difference. Perhaps if printers still controlled punctuation, they'd invent a different mark to distinguish a rhetorical question from a legitimate one?

...in fact the general trend of your discussion is presenting your own viewpoints as facts...

That's actually how most discussions go (and you do it yourself, like everyone else). You have two or more parties who all say 'this is this' without much asking questions or saying 'I think such and such.' And probably with good reason, because there'd be a lot of redundant 'I thinks' when it's clear everything anyone says is only their understanding! So instead, Person A asserts their POV, Person B says 'no, it's opinion 2', and then they either keep hitting each other over the head with their opinions, or one of them says 'oh right. Okay. Thanks for putting me straight.'

And i did not believe that your an ignorant.

Though I live in an industrialized nation, it's wrong to apply such liberal stereotypes.

1) I'm poor. I very rarely buy CE goods, spending my disposable income elsewhere. If I have ever bought a CE product that had a warning about overheating, it was so many years ago that I've forgotten!

2) I don't much care for industrial stuff anyway, being something of a hippy!

Thus my opinion on this matter was me thinking about it from a limited perspective, rather than calling on experience in the field. I presented my opinions (with inclusion of question marks to show my uncertainty, though not in a totally unambiguous way), and had them explained to me why I was wrong. For me, that's what makes B3D a successful discussion forum.

 

[bomlat]

The Ms had to kwno about this failure before the public release the console.
It is simple, before the start of production they had to made a testing based on at least a few thousand pieces, and that had to bring out the rrod.
They had three month for the continous testing,and that mean a long time for testing.

 

[Fu3lFr3nzy]

They had three month for the continous testing,and that mean a long time for testing.

The ROD usually appears on the fourth month onwards though

I do agree that MS theoritically had alot of time to test out the machine for errors before mass producing it, but I guess something just majorly slipped along the line :|

 

[AlNom]

-> AlStrong thinking aloud, not intended as a rebuttal to anyone in particular, regarding yields & overheating due to the GPU.

Yield has to do with the number of acceptable chips produced from a single wafer. In PC land it leads to speed binning as certain chips just simply cannot reach the particular clock speeds due to manufacturing issues with the transistors - be it improper doping or slight physical defects. In that sense, the voltage/power needed to operate the chip is out-of-spec and then you have the thermal issues, which are not the norm - some chips operate fine at a speed, others require more power to accomplish the same.

In the case of Xenos, the mother-daughter dice scenario is not too unlike Pentium D or Core 2 Quad; there are two chips produced separately to increase the manufacturing yield.

The mother die of Xenos has 232 million transistors, so it should be able to have higher yields per wafer as the die itself is smaller and be able to clock nicely (obviously, the two chips operate somewhat differently with respect to performance per watt, but 50-70 million transistors should be a big enough difference to entail lower thermal characteristics). The crutch is that there is heat also being produced from the 100 million transistor eDRAM that sits nearby (i.e. ROPS ).

Putting the two close to one another just creates another problem as it enhances the thermal issue, which should have been dealt with appropriately in the first place. But that does not necessarily make the yields of both dice worse (could be one or the other).

---------------
What I am not clear on is if the RRoD is due to insufficient cooling, or shoddy, inconsistent soldering or cheap components or even poor application of thermal paste or all of the above. Heck, I'm not clear on just how serious these RRoDs really are versus what the internet says.

If it's purely a cooling problem of the GPU, then some chips are clearly worse quality than others, and the speed binning is rather aggressive at 90nm for the combined package.

Assuming they don't mess with the voltages and power for every single box, the problem might not be related to the temperature so much as insufficient voltage. The console is supposed to be of constant construction in every aspect, and they would have to adjust and increase the voltage supply of the "worse-quality" GPUs, in which case, the temperature would increase... I'm not sure what their policy is on that.

Of course... shoddy soldering would create its own set of problems, be it increased resistance due to insufficient solder or short circuiting due to too much solder. Melting seems improbable... the lowest melting temperature for a lead-free solder is 118 C. *shrug*

Poor quality capacitors would just screw with the power regulation.

 

[Subtlesnake]

This was printed in the letters page on the Inquirer. Not sure if it's been posted before.

"The reliability issues that the 360 is facing is directly related to the thermal management of the system. I previously worked for the manufacturing subcon for MS on this project. I have seen and still have a copy of the thermal modeling report that was performed on the GPU. Considering the passive heatsink without heat-pipe configuration, the GPU is barely below the maximum junction temperature of chip at maximum power load; by barely, I mean the predicted temp is 1 degree below the max junction temp. This is from a numerical model. In normal cases (for example if MS was ATi or Nvidia), this is not acceptable. Even the most desperate of design houses would put at least a 10% margin against the numerical model. Not MS, they ran with the passive heatsink without heat-pipe design into production.

In addition to the thermal management problem, there is also the first level board problem. For the Xbox 360 CPU and GPU, the first level board (the bga board under the flip chip) required 20um/20um line width and space. Two years ago, no substrate manufacturer can achieve this requirement. A few high end substrate players (Kyocera, Nanya and PPT) developed this process specifically for MS. Needless to say, yields were extremely low (in the 40% range). For high reliability products (ie for military or medical), any lot yield below 85% is considered castastrophic failure and is rejected. At 40% yield, no one can guarantee the variation from part-to-part that is "not" tested in process; and obviously, no manufacturer can test for everything in process.

This was from my understanding of the 360 project while I was working for MS's subcon two years ago. This was phase 1 of the 360 project. After I left my previous company, I heard there were design iterations for the GPU and CPU so problem like thermal management and manufacturing yield should improve. "

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40931

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Well given the choice between launching with failures and misssing the launch I feel that MS made the right business decision. I'm glad I got to play Kameo, PGR3, and CoD2 a couple of years ago instead of waiting. Especially in light of the fact that they extended the warranty to be the best in the industry.

 

[cthellis42]

Especially in light of the fact that they extended the warranty to be the best in the industry.

Offhand, I'd be hard-pressed to call a warranty extended to stave off the inevitable class action lawsuit (and possible complete recall) to be "the best in the industry," no matter where it's coming from.

 

[DJ12]

Especially in light of the fact that they extended the warranty to be the best in the industry.

Do you work for MS?

Not heard spin like that since Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell conned England.

 

[Todd33]

Especially in light of the fact that they extended the warranty to be the best in the industry.

They extended it to only cover RRoD failures, nothing else. Call it the best in the industry, but it's just a recall-over-time IMO. I'd rather have the best hardware in the industry with a standard warranty.

Next you will be telling us the 'surge' is working