"2x the power of the GC," can someone clarify what this means? (ERP)

all of this talk about Doom3 not being ported to PS2 and GC because the CPU is too slow for physics is rubish. Doom3 was ported to the xbox because the xbox is the only current generation hardware with the appropriate video hardware (stencil+cubemap) to do the job.

as for GC games with complex physics, in particularly Havok physics, there's a list here. looking at the console's individualy, you'll see that very few titles that use Havok are exclusive to one platform. even Halo2 is listed as xbox exclusive and Condemed as xbox360 exclusive, even though they have already been announced for PC.
 
see colon said:
all of this talk about Doom3 not being ported to PS2 and GC because the CPU is too slow for physics is rubish. Doom3 was ported to the xbox because the xbox is the only current generation hardware with the appropriate video hardware (stencil+cubemap) to do the job.

as for GC games with complex physics, in particularly Havok physics, there's a list here. looking at the console's individualy, you'll see that very few titles that use Havok are exclusive to one platform. even Halo2 is listed as xbox exclusive and Condemed as xbox360 exclusive, even though they have already been announced for PC.
I thought they didn't port Doom 3 because of ram limitations.
 
OtakingGX said:
You're precisely right, Ty. Nintendo is cost conscious. I bet they're making sure every penny they gave ATi for the development of Hollywood is well spent.

Absolutely. As I'm sure MS will get out of IBM and ATI as well. That is, it's not as if MS is just going to throw money at IBM and ATI. I'm pretty sure Sony will get a powerful part out of Nvidia too.
 
Ty said:
Absolutely. As I'm sure MS will get out of IBM and ATI as well. That is, it's not as if MS is just going to throw money at IBM and ATI. I'm pretty sure Sony will get a powerful part out of Nvidia too.

You are right, again. I believe MS's focus with ATi was "give us a GPU that will topple the top-of-the-line PC part." That's definitely what they got, and the thing is optimized for what it does and the resolution games are run at.

It does seem a little silly to try to tie AI to processing power. Obviously the more the better, but you'd need an order of magnitude more processing power before you'd start seeing a great increase in AI.

Most of your impressive AI comes from impressive coders. Once you've determined how the player is behaving, then you can just look up a value in an array or use nested if statements to tell the computer what to do. More processing power doesn't mean smarter AI, it just means more input an options the AI can exercise.

As an example, if you can assign material properties to every object in the game then you can have the AI "think":

if (player.weaponState()=shooting && object1.coverMaterial()=metal && gun.matlPenetration(player)<material.matlPenetration(object1))
movement.takeCover(object1);
else
attack.throwGrenade(player);
movement.runTheHeckAway;
endif

I'm sure you can tell from my syntax that I've taken Java (and am not very good at it). Obviously the takeCover method would be a big and complex one telling the AI how to interact with objects and position them between themselves and the player.

The more variables you can load into memory and consider, though, the more "intelligent" your AI will be. When running at 1+ GHz I don't think this is a limiting factor as far as AI goes.
 
But increasing the complexity of the scenary, number of (eg) soldiers/ and (different)weapons/materials/cars will not also need much mor performance too?

I mean taking in account the AI model for KZ it seems the bigger and more complex scenarios are the more performance you will need just like the need souhld increase linearly with the number of AI.

The same for Chess (from what I saw in the presentation), and even if this may not limit the decision making of AI (from one of their pdf sit seems that this is not the main problem in todays games) but at very least this will limit the AI abbility to get information enought for making good decisions in complex worlds, or did I understund this wrong?
 
pc999 said:
But increasing the complexity of the scenary, number of (eg) soldiers/ and (different)weapons/materials/cars will not also need much mor performance too?

I mean taking in account the AI model for KZ it seems the bigger and more complex scenarios are the more performance you will need just like the need souhld increase linearly with the number of AI.

The same for Chess (from what I saw in the presentation), and even if this may not limit the decision making of AI (from one of their pdf sit seems that this is not the main problem in todays games) but at very least this will limit the AI abbility to get information enought for making good decisions in complex worlds, or did I understund this wrong?
There's no point in having any more buttons on that since there isn't really any other buttons you can press when holding a revmote. Nintendo said that for normal games, they will release a shell for the revmote that is basically an XBOX360 controller's configuration I guess.
 
nintenho said:
There's no point in having any more buttons on that since there isn't really any other buttons you can press when holding a revmote. Nintendo said that for normal games, they will release a shell for the revmote that is basically an XBOX360 controller's configuration I guess.


I guess that you are speaking of my sig, well you dont need to press all of them at the same time (like you dont do with current controllers) still it would give us more possiblitys (eg A- normal attack B- secondary attack C- use D- reload X- jump Z- roll ...) it cant hurt in IMO.


BTW anyone knows here I can get the old Halo AI presentation that is used to be here, I lost my copy :cry: .
 
OtakingGX said:
It does seem a little silly to try to tie AI to processing power. Obviously the more the better, but you'd need an order of magnitude more processing power before you'd start seeing a great increase in AI.

I was wondering the same, quite frankly, on the correlation between CPU crunching power and AI.

Sure, a more powerful CPU is better than a less powerful one but the strength of AI routines to me (a non-coder) is related more to design and efficiency of the code.
 
Ty said:
I was wondering the same, quite frankly, on the correlation between CPU crunching power and AI.

Sure, a more powerful CPU is better than a less powerful one but the strength of AI routines to me (a non-coder) is related more to design and efficiency of the code.

Why?
 
pc999 said:
Because good code runs faster on slower processors than bad code on faster processors?

AI is a bit of a misnomer. You're not playing against an intelligent computer, you're playing against an intelligent coder, who got computer controlled characters to act in a human-like way to try to beat you. Obviously, if she wanted, she could have them beat you every time by ganging up on you and trapping you. It'd get kind of frustrating after the third or forth time the space marines closed a bulkhead behind you and dropped 20 grenades into the room you're stuck in through port holes.
 
Of curse that the (any) code is dependent of the coder, and AI is probably the hardest thing to do well, yet picking in the teoric scenario given as example in the KZ ppt, if in every dot there is a (even if very simple) 2+ levels structure, soldiers could or not be in there, then the performance needed to run the same AI would be much bigger althought it shouldnt stress that much the rest of the code/system.

What I mean is that AI needs to get "information" about the world (some of the articles I saw about KZ, H and a few more (althought in that site with the KZ AI ppt there is a lot of things that I want to see), they always put info as a primary need, also Napoleon (is this well writen?) used to say something like"it is better a spy in a good pocision than 100000 men on the field") and need to translate their decisions to the world (eg if they know and decide to roll they will need animations to roll), but it is needed more power to get that to work, just like my first eg in the thread the AI will need to get much more info and will need to get much more "replys" if we can indeed control the ball with physical precision because if it can only do the same than eg Top Spin can do it will very bad, so even if it will not get "smarter" it will need to at least more power to scale with the rest.

And other things like the learning AI from Forza that still is being considered "computationlly expensive" (from the Bishop-Lovelace pdf), meybe is XB that cant do it (it does not reach the 1Ghz that you mention).

BTW I am using this thread as referece too and I think it back me up.

Because I understand that in "pure AI" (research) the problems are others (they are mentioned in the thread) but for a game more things are needed (monkey with all the the info on the net is not smart but a genius in a vegetative state will not outsmart any monkey too).

Soo if we can do much more complex things the AI just to keep as responsible (or smart) in complex worlds should need much more power to run scaling with the complexity, and for me a (at very least in gaming terms) AI that runs in a complex world "as good" as one that runs in a simple one the first one is better than the second, yet it seems the case that (if you already do have all the info/actions/pathfinding that is needed) the extra CPU power may not improve the AI in the simple world game.

Edit: rereading this
The AIS-1 chip will focus on four key areas: path finding, or computing the most tactically sound way to move from point to point; terrain analysis; moving AI bots in formation and squads; and sensory simulation, which may mean the ability to react to stimuli in the artificial environment.
this also mention things that scale with the complexity of the world, this while it should not give a better way of deciding in RPGs if the girl marry with you or not, in anything more tatical it should provide a good deal of better AI for RTS, FPS just like Cell (or at least math strong CPUs) should give in Chess.
 
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I do usually agree w/you pc999, & there is certainly a correlative central processor/AI relationship. But the proficiency of the coder working with whatever respective toolset so to speak, takes definite precedence. More processing power I would agree gives the possibility of greater AI, but it still must be implemented. This is where the AI coders' ability either shines, or is lost in mediocrity, or just plainly poor. There are so many avenues one can take while developing scripting routines if knowledgeable, & not all are cpu intensive. The player can also be fooled you must remember, I was arguing the fact that simply because you hadn't seen a comprehensive Halo-esque AI/ vehicle physics comparable GC game, that this invariably must mean that the Gekko wasn't capable. One does not exist on the PS2 either, again Bungie in this aspect are just that good.
 
Killzone's actually a pretty good example, because the software team had some great approaches and ideas about programming AI, but their implementation was so buggy that it varied between brilliant and "an orange rolling down a hill" (IGN). AI's just plain hard to program. There are still plenty of games this generation that don't have AI as good as the Half-Life 1 or Goldeneye. What we need right now for better AI isn't more power; it's better programming. All more power is buying us right now is being able to have 300 guys with OK AI instead of 30.
 
Li Mu Bai

Yes and I already said and proof that I as wrong but like you say CPU speed and AI are correlated is not only the coder work that matters althought this is certanly the are that is more dependent of the coder work and more CPU power may not mean automatically better AI, but without more power it is probably that in more complex games (more variables) AI will get worst.

fearsomepirate

This is one game that I never played yet I give the example because the presentation is available to the public, and it is interesting bacuase I had read a lot of coments like your along with some that say "the AI isnt update enought times" and they indeed had to compromise the original idea (page 37-38) it may be because of that (and if it is then, ironically, it would be a question of power).

Anyway I do have bigger hopes for the near future as we are getting more midleware like www.spirops.com and Epic seems that had put a lot of effort in AI for their UE3 (see my sig) if this is not only PR, and even guerrila seems to get better AI in that E3 video so (if this inst only PR talking) we may really see improvements, plus as gfx gives less and less returns they will need to find others ways to improve their games.
 
pc999 said:
But increasing the complexity of the scenary, number of (eg) soldiers/ and (different)weapons/materials/cars will not also need much mor performance too?

I mean taking in account the AI model for KZ it seems the bigger and more complex scenarios are the more performance you will need just like the need souhld increase linearly with the number of AI.

The same for Chess (from what I saw in the presentation), and even if this may not limit the decision making of AI (from one of their pdf sit seems that this is not the main problem in todays games) but at very least this will limit the AI abbility to get information enought for making good decisions in complex worlds, or did I understund this wrong?
Is this the AI based on the first Killzone or is it continued work after Killzone1?
 
I think that this presentation is only with work for KZ1 dont know if they still worked on that model.
 
Please refocus on the topic.
(Yes AI is both Algorithm (hence coder) and CPU dependant, as almost anything that runs exclusively on the CPU...)
 
pc999 said:
I think that this presentation is only with work for KZ1 dont know if they still worked on that model.
I am asking this because that link showed more potential than what we saw in the actual game.
Which could be another example of CPU limitation having an impact on AI despite that developers created a more advance code for AI.Perhaps only partial work could be implemented in the game because the CPU wasnt powerful enough?

Perhaps we might see their complete work in KZ2.Hopefully
 
Cant answer on that, but the engine really seems to use a lot of math and they had to compromise the original idea (last post) so it may be.

This also seems that if we just feed it with more way points it could be much more precisse/better being only dependent on performance, but I dont know.

Just to be fair to Ty, fsp, LMB... , one should notice that this is one particular branch/implementation/application of AI that it is particulary dependent on math (like chess) many would consider (eg) Fable to be more digne of being true AI and as far as I know (today at least) it is much, much more dependent on the coder than HW (although brute force may help in number of units etc... like it is saw in TES:O, even if not in their decision making process).


Ingenu said:
Please refocus on the topic.
(Yes AI is both Algorithm (hence coder) and CPU dependant, as almost anything that runs exclusively on the CPU...)

From my part I am just trying to say that Rev should give a completely new world of complexity to the games (even if for us will be simpler), as it goes from a finite (and low) number of actions/control (buttoms) X Time to a infinite number of actions/control (natural movements, this may be limited by controller precission right?) X Time, so (assuming that Nintendo inst stupid and will not limit their console) it should be prepared for much more and more complex opeations and that AI is implied on that too, so it only makes sense to Rev being siginificantely more powerfull than GC.

Anyway I will try:D .
 
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