"2x the power of the GC," can someone clarify what this means? (ERP)

Welcome, BTW good firstt post.

Just a opening note I am not trying "to put down the Nintendo machine" as I like it very much, just trying to showhere it is weak.

OnT, you are right I should gave a deffinition on physics and AI, once that the way I did is too oversimplistic, relative (to the power of the machine) and subjective, I think that there is none avaliable sp I will create two to use here and for my purposes.

I call good physics when you can "pick" objects in the game and use it according to some law of physics (Newtons Laws or not); eg1: in a FPS if you can think something like "if I shoot that rock the fallen tree(s) will roll and hit the gates killing the guards on patrols around it; eg2: you need to reach to some place but there is no way to get there, but you do have (eg) rocks, wood, steel sticks... whatever and you can pick those and order in a way that you can get a structure high enought to reach that point, of curse that it is much more fun if you need to concern about your weight and such. But GC does not have any game like that howerver in XB (eg, in HL2) already there is this to some extent (yet still very very limited).
The more objects you have and the more you can do, the better the physics are IMO.

For AI I shouldnt have said nice or good AIas by the deffinition I will gave it is not obtained by any game , but here is go a deffinition only for "tatical/strategic" gaming AI only (as a deffinition for AI in general is problematic from a phylosophic POV) so this will not be good for Fable and such only here enemys combat.
I would call a good AI one here the AI (anymey or not) acts and reacts always in a dangerous way (even) not being more powerfull than the player (here I am using a principle way that if two players (humans) have equal skills the winner will be the smarter/more inteligent one), so if they have equal powers only tatics/strategy can lead to victory.
The more dangerous, impredicable, better learning, better planing ... the AI have the better it is IMO.
Of curse there are no AI like that in todays games but BC games are mostly some patterns that you learn, find the weakness and the AI is ruined, in a FEW XB games like Halo I already thinks that try to do something closer from what I described, anyway it is much better defy (to your mind, not a matter of timings aiming and such) and much more fun.

I hope that those satisfy you and give a better understanding from what I want for next gen that I dont see (GC) or still to limited (XB) this gen.
 
If you played the PC versions of Doom 3 and HL2, the Xbox versions were incredibly disappointing. The framerate was hideous in HL2 pretty much anywhere the physics were getting interesting and the load times were insane. Blow up something in an area with a bunch of bodies in it, and watch the machine just puke all over your carpet. Same with Doom 3. Half the stenciled shadows were just plane GONE, fireballs and such didn't cast any light, framerate was pretty bad (worse in a firefight as usual), etc. I dunno, what are Xbox reviewrs' standards? Sometimes, I get the feeling they give an automatic "10" for graphics if they see a normal map somewhere, regardless of anythign else. And are they playing the games on actual production-model Xboxes? For one thing, I've been unable to replicate what IGN said about Beyond Good & Evil running smoother on the Xbox...it definitely hiccups more on the Box than the Cube, especially when in the overworld.

So no, I don't think that's better than "not having it." I don't know if Gamecube do complicated Havok physics if you crap out the system to where you're achieving 8 fps like HL2 does on Xbox, maybe not. But at that point, who cares? I'd imagine that the 64-bit FPU and double-sized cache might help quite a bit for physics, but who knows? There were games with ragdoll, cloth physics, and bouncing boxes, but they were all cross-platform.

But, comparing apples to apples, picking Halo1/2 (one that we all know) there is no FPS on GC
Well, just end it right there. There's only one exclusive true FPS on GC, Geist, and it wasn't by a top developer (but it had bump-mapping, which automatically means its graphics were better than MP2's :rolleyes:). No, Metroid Prime isn't something you can count. It's not even remotely taking the same approach to gameplay or graphics design. For one thing, lock-on would render an AI like Halo's (which I'm not entirely sure what made it so incredible, having played the game a billion times) useless. Comparing it to Halo is useless...there's far more geometry and texturing in an environment, the animations are much smoother, there are quite a few SFX, and the framerate is much, much better. But the physics and AI aren't as good, nor were they intended to be (there's some decent ragdoll...try blowing up some boxes surrounded by corpses around the Earth landing cruiser, and the physics for the morph ball are fine), and there's no bump-mapping or reflections. The closest thing I can compare to AI-wise to Halo available on Gamecube that I've played is Everything or Nothing, but that was cross-platform. The only thing Metroid Prime and Halo have in common is camera angle. While we're comparing apples to toaster ovens, let's compare F-Zero GX and Forza.
so I think it is safe to assume
You can't make many assumptions when you have a library of like 11 exclusives, 10 of which are Mario Party titles. I will freely admit that Forza's AI is much superior to Mariokart's, and the physics in Halo are much better than P.N.03's.
 
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fearsomepirate said:
You can't make many assumptions when you have a library of like 11 exclusives, 10 of which are Mario Party titles. I will freely admit that Forza's AI is much superior to Mariokart's, and the physics in Halo are much better than P.N.03's.

Thanks for the assumption that I do have 10 Mario Party titles , I guess that this is includidng the LATEST MP6, but going over this, and yes your examples are better than mine, but please give me a GC game that it is as good as the exclusives XB games from the CPU tasks POV (AI, physics, animations, sound (better be: no GPU POV) etc...) so you can invalidate my comments that: XB games are ussualy better in those tasks; or that "overall the worst AI/physics/etc... is on GC and there is no peak that surpasse others games on others consoles, so I think it is safe to assume that Gekko is the one that it is worst suited for such tasks"

You just cant give me a GC game that is better in those tasks than (eg) Halo, the same for FCI, FSW, Fable they are just better than any GC that I know.
 
Here is the thread

Don't get me wrong, in general I am much more fond of PPC designs then x86, even if it's only for the instruction set preference.
But that doesn't change the fact Gekko is a 750cx core derivative with added 2way SIMD for fpu, and as such more or less on par with P3 running on the same clock.
Given the memory architecture it should outperform it, but not enough to make up for 300mhz difference.

So Gekko should be a bit faster, but it is not used in any game or it is more used to help the GPU it still not invalidate that no game use the extra power, and still for what I want it seems that it still need
Which doesn't say much when you want it to run a game designed to work optimally with 5-10x more CPU resources then a 460mhz Gekko has.
of curse for Rev I want more than HL2 gives, a lot more.
 
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dukmahsik said:
Bethesda says the 360 is around same as a X1900


well that is either wrong or misquoted. Xbox 360 is not on par with R580~ Radeon X1900.

in terms of performance it's more like modestly more powerful than X800/X850 but not on par with R520~ X1800, much less R580~ X1900
 
Megadrive1988 said:
well that is either wrong or misquoted. Xbox 360 is not on par with R580~ Radeon X1900.

in terms of performance it's more like modestly more powerful than X800/X850 but not on par with R520~ X1800, much less R580~ X1900

ill take the devs word for it in the latest dev interview on oblivion, even ATI said it's on par with x1800 give or take and in a closed environment that's quite nice.
 
I would think that becasue of the REV controller, and it's potential to offer more precise control , and a more physical interaction with games, that things like AI and physics are exactly what Nintendo will have to emphasize this gen to really take advantage of it's possibilities.Especially since they are clearly not emphasizing graphics to the same extent as the others.In past gens the VPU was alway's the key part in gaming, for all we know the CPU might end being the monster, and the VPU relatively less so.
 
I hope that this is what will happen, because as I said (and gave a exemple in my first post) this controller will give us a level of control that just need power to make sense having such a level of control, it does not make sense having the best controller to physics and do not have power enough for (eg) physics and with physics come AI, animation, sound etc...
 
pc999 said:
I hope that this is what will happen, because as I said (and gave a exemple in my first post) this controller will give us a level of control that just need power to make sense having such a level of control, it does not make sense having the best controller to physics and do not have power enough for (eg) physics and with physics come AI, animation, sound etc...


Missed your post but I agree. It only makes sense. My example would be a FPS game, with that controller would require greater (than typical AI than you see normally in console games) to offer any level of challenge.
Or a raquet sport game with a greater level of control, you would want greater physics to see the subtle actions of controlling the ball, fully realized.
 
I guess, like it happens in PC-Console shooters like FC-FCI here they already tune the AI down (relatevely to the PC version) because of the controlers that do not allows the same kind of tatics.
 
pc999 said:
I guess, like it happens in PC-Console shooters like FC-FCI here they already tune the AI down (relatevely to the PC version) because of the controlers that do not allows the same kind of tatics.


Exactly, no more auto aim,dumbed down AI or lock on. :LOL:
Or instead of just pushing a button to hit a tennis ball , a twist of the wrist at the end of the stroke, would cause some real spin.
 
pc999 said:
please give me a GC game that it is as good as the exclusives XB games from the CPU tasks POV (AI, physics, animations, sound (better be: no GPU POV) etc...) so you can invalidate my comments that: XB games are ussualy better in those tasks; or that "overall the worst AI/physics/etc... is on GC and there is no peak that surpasse others games on others consoles, so I think it is safe to assume that Gekko is the one that it is worst suited for such tasks"

You just cant give me a GC game that is better in those tasks than (eg) Halo, the same for FCI, FSW, Fable they are just better than any GC that I know.

how are the grunts in halo more "intelligent" than the villagers in re4*? characters from both games have behavioral patterns characteristic for their respective classes, in both titles they show intelligent-like behaviour and "pull out" surprises now and then. but eventhough most people would ascribe such suff to AI it is actually all skillfully scripted. i'd bet you that there's more AI (as in 'machine behaviour actually adapting to player's actions') in your favourite fighter and more physics in your favourite racer than what you'd find in games like halo and re4. but you've been actually arguing which console is better at running scripts ; )


* yes, the former generally move quicker but that has little to do with AI.
 
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Yes pc999, simply because you cannot point out a specific NGC game that supports better physics/AI than the Halo series doesn't necessarily imply that the Gekko wasn't up to the task. You've taken the pinnacle on the XBX, the Halo series when no such title exists on the GC, nor on the PS2 for that matter. And still goes unmatched even on its console of birth. When has Nintendo (other than MP, MP2:Echoes, FE:poR, & perhaps Pikmin 2) internally created a truly difficult game this gen.? Or a physics heavy one? (excluding the kings of interactive water physics imo, SMS, Waverace:BS, & soon to be TP as well) This is due I believe to partly to a large list of variables. Developer proficiency in this area, developer focus, priorities, gameplay type, genre, target demographics, budgets, etc. Even TWW had great physics, but a simplistic AI. Nintendo's ease of playability philosophy has permeated most of their 1st party offerings. Like others have mentioned, certain games like RE4, MGS:TTS, & other cross-platform & system exclusive titles have exhibited pieces, (Metal Arms: AGITS, Battalion Wars) but not as comprehensive a package as what Bungie delivered on this front. They were simply imo that good.

To say that physics/AI weren't the major focuses of what Bungie was attempting to accomplish whilst developing Halo is to be deluding yourself. I don't see the GC struggling with Fable's AI, a project so focused around these same aspects like Halo, as I stated earlier, just doesn't exist on the GC platform. So no truly apt software comparison can be made.
 
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It was something of a joke. I've got about 35 GC games; I know there aren't 10 Mario Parties. The point is it's not "safe" to "assume" anything when you don't have valid points of comparison. We're talking about one of the most underdeveloped consoles in the history of gaming; I simply have too much background in mathematics and science to draw conclusions based on an incredibly tiny data sample.

I also don't think your examples are that good. For a valid comparison with HL2's physics, for example, I'd need a Gamecube game with a physics engine that actually brings the CPU to its knees the way HL2 does on Xbox. Almost all the games with halfway decent physics are cross-platform games maintaining 30 or 60 fps (such as Second Sight and Prince of Persia). How much can the Gekko do when the system is running at 8 fps the way the Xbox does in physics-intensive situations? Beats me. Saying "See, Half-Life 2 brings the Xbox to its knees" proves nothing except that the Xbox's CPU really isn't up to the task of HL2's physics. Anyway, wave Race sure has nice physics, and Prime 2 actually has pretty good free body/ragdoll physics; it's just the game design doesn't call for it often.

And what's so special about Halo's AI? The baddies dodge grenades, take cover, don't run straight at you, and flush you out with grenades if you take cover for too long. Great, I saw the AI in Everything or Nothing do almost all the same things. Heck, I saw some of that in Goldeneye. Chaos Theory had pretty good AI as well. And for the most direct comparison I can make, Pikmin 2 has much, much better AI than Kingdom Under Fire. Lots of this-gen games have good AI, including cross-platform games (Splinter Cell, Freedom Fighters, Everything or Nothing, etc). The fact is, we've had processors capable of good AI since like the Pentium II (remember original Half-Life?). These days, it's more about the talent of the programmer than the power of the processor. Closest comparison I can make to physics and AI on Cube is Metal Arms, which ran just fine (better than Xbox, actually; owned it for both systems)...the vehicle physics were very similar, the bad guys had lots of free-body physics when you shot their limbs, and the AI was pretty good as well.

Not sure why you keep bringing up Doom 3. D3 had terrible AI, very little in the way of physics (I've been shooting cans off tables for years), and maxed out at about 25 fps on the Xbox.

There's just not much to compare to, so no, it's not "safe to conclude" anything. It's like trying to talk about what kind of graphics the Atari Jaguar was really capable of when it had a library of what, 25 titles?
 
I already said and proof that Gekko is better than XCPU in my post nº84 in this thread, and as I say there it still there is no game on GC (for whatever reason) that push those tasks has hard as they are pushed on the XB exclusive games or even in PS2-XB games like Black. Probably I make a error when I said assumption (still find strange that none tried to put this kind of game a game in the GC) but affter reading JC that D3 will not make GC or PS2 because of their specs and that game (on the PC) needs a DX7 gfx cards and a 1,5Ghz CPU that leads me to a somewhat safe assumption that it is the CPU that would those consoles down (I am almost sure that GN said something like that, which have similar specs requirements) meybe memory is also one of the main limiting factors.

BTW I remembering that played Metal Arms on XB sometime ago (but dont remember here?) althought from my memory I dont recal that there is good AI or physics, I will try to play them again.
 
fearsomepirate said:
HL2 and Doom3 were awful on the Xbox (did you actually play them?), so I can't say the Xbox was up to the task of those games, either (Doom 3's physics and AI weren't out of this world to begin with)

Yea becaue the PS2 and GameCube versions were so great right? OH thats right neither of those other systems could even handle the games at all. Both games were highly rated all around and were a blast to play on Xbox most of us prefer to play games from our couch with a big screen and a 1\2 ways decent digital audio system, instead of alone hunched over our ubergeek keyboard thinking about how leet we are or whatever. gimme a break
 
Metal arms had a very similar physics engine to Halo. In fact, friends who came over to play it said "This is like Halo with robots." If you can tolerate the framerate drops and frame tearing on XB (better off with the Cube version...the XB version is near unplayable in areas), shoot some limbs, blow some stuff up, watch stuff fly, dangle, twirl, etc. Especially notice how severed limbs bounce around as the robots run around. The AI will also dodge rockets and run from grenades, although the robots aren't as agile as the Covenant.

There are two reasons you don't see what you're talking about: one is that games that frequently drop down to 8fps or so are just a bad idea. For some reason, Xbox gamers will play a game that runs as smoothly and cleanly as an Atari Jaguar title for the sake of saying they got to play a port of some awesome PC game that you'll never see on GC or PS2. Judging by what I see, on average, if a developer has coded up some feature that regularly causes the system to let the magic blue smoke out, he doesn't actually put it in the final game. In other words, HL2 only exists on Xbox because it's a port of a great PC game...no AAA developer would build an exclusive game ground-up for Xbox that ran that poorly. The second reason is market demographic. Publishers like money. Cubers don't like to buy cross-platform action games (especially not after repeated coverage by gaming press, who rarely if ever mentioned the strengths of the Cube version of a title in lieu of complaining about lack of online in every review of every game). Remember, Criterion had Burnout 3 slated for Cube before EA bought them. They didn't cancel it because the crash physics were too much for the Cube to handle; they did it because EA didn't want it competing with Need for Speed, I mean "it was too online-centric."

As for Doom 3, that game wouldn't run on any DX7 card except for the GF4 MX, and that was because of the GF4 MX's limited vertex shader support (but no pixel shaders, so forget about the normal maps). GF2 and GF256 couldn't handle it. And given that quite a bit of the content and graphics engine had to be changed or removed to run on the Xbox, I think it's a bit of an exagerration to say Xbox could "do" Doom 3. Lacking a vertex shader, you're not going to see that kind of unified lighting engine on Gamecube. PS2...well...I don't know much about it. No pixel shader, though. And either way, neither system has nearly enough RAM to remotely do the game justice. Even with 64 MB, they had to cut stuff out, use low-res, low-bit-depth textures, leave a lot of normal maps out, and make tons of other sacrifices on Xbox. Cube with it's 24 MB of main RAM? Forget it, even if it had the video chip to do it. But the problem definitely isn't CPU. It's GPU and memory.
 
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fearsomepirate said:
If you played the PC versions of Doom 3 and HL2, the Xbox versions were incredibly disappointing.

I did play both on PC and ofcourse if you compare the Xbox version to the PC-version it's not hard to tell which one is better, however both of those games are an excellent showcase of Xbox's power, remember it's specs when you review them and compare those games to other Xbox-games not to pc-games...

The fact is that those games got very good reviews on Xbox for a reason, I personally don't like Doom 3 very much, but nevertheless I'm impressed what Xbox was capable of late in it's life. Same goes for Half-Life 2... You were WAY out of line when you said that they are awful.
 
Anyway back on topic

What Rev could do, given that controller to be fully realised, go a lot beyond what any (2x-3x) current gen console can do so I still think that, just like DS makes sense once that have the power enought to run top rated and very sucessefull games like Nintendo Dogs, Sims, Mario Kart, Metroid Prime Hunters etc..., Rev also need a good deal of more power to make sense so I still find very doubtfull that Rev is only 2-3x the GC as it would be easy to make (eg)CPUs much more powerfull for gaming (like in my first post) and still very cheap and add a lot of gameplay possibilitys (which is good to differentiate it even more from the others) and on the top of that it would make the console much more competitive (both the new and old market).

So this does not make sense at all.
 
Dr Evil said:
The fact is that those games got very good reviews on Xbox for a reason, I personally don't like Doom 3 very much, but nevertheless I'm impressed what Xbox was capable of late in it's life. Same goes for Half-Life 2... You were WAY out of line when you said that they are awful.

You know, I don't consider myself an FPS/loadtime whore, but HL2 and Doom 3 were just unacceptable. When framerates, load times, and texture resolution are that bad, I honestly cannot take the time to care how many dot products, moments of inertia, and lines of sight are being computed. To put it in perspective, I'm one of the few people who thought Conker64 was one of the worst-looking games I'd ever seen on N64, while most people consider it one of the graphical pinnacles of the system. I'm one of the few people who thought the PSx was a giant pile of crap the first day I saw jaggy, choppy, low-res 3D on it and preferred to play SNES and Genesis games every time I got the chance. I loathed Goldeneye's graphics from the moment I first played it back in the 90's. I'm not just hatin' on Xbox. There are a lot of games on various systems with graphics scores in the high 8's and 9's that I would rate in the 6's or 7's based on the severe image quality issues that come from trying to do special effects beyond the limits of a system's normal operating capabilities. Reviewers are too easy to impress these days; I hope that all these effects will be so commonplace on PS3/X360/(Rev?) that reviewers won't notice them anymore.

Back on topic, Revolution will be awesome. I love Nintendo! :love:
 
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