How far can we push the GC architeture?

[pc999]

First of all I am doing this thread as a teorical one a mental exercice if you want, here I dont care if Rev is indeed based on this or not and if so how, take this as if I asked it about PS2 or XB.

Second I am not sure about anyhing I will write althought I think they right, or maybe is just to late now and I am writing a lot of foolish things, so be gentle.

Going to the topic, what I want to know is what can we do with the original GC chips to update them so they can offer much better AI, physics, gfx ... (that dont mean as good as XB) ( this could be interesting for Rev if it hadnt a big increase on the transistores counts, lets say about 2x as probably it could be a very good balance between price and performance).

I will post some things that I think they would make the bigest diference, and I suposse they can be done (however I dont know so I put that as questions), I guess that if they can do a GC2.0 that looks like this people would see a major improvement in games but not in price.

First of all it seems that the 3 bigger reasons why GC HW is so underutilized is:

1- Low market share (dont matter here).

2-No high level language to the TEV (that make it both hard to programe and costly).

3- Is good enought to do a lot of fxs but it is hard (performance/speed wise) to get them on actual games (eg ERP said that normal map is slow, althought possible, but only used in one game IIRC (SC3), not even in exclusives), mainly because of data formats and ALU limitations that make those fxs need multipass ones.

So can they improve the ALUs in order to them be able to do more and more complex ops per cicle (or even put more ALUs), being programable by high level languages so being more like a pixel shader. BTW If the ops could be done at least in 16bits (hp) instead of 8 could they have some form of HDR?

About the TnL engine what can be done with it?

Culd they just double (or more) the pipes and make it have higher efficience (less performance lost per light etc..)? Or any other thing just to get higher raw performance?

Could they improve their compression systems for less than 1/6 of the texture? What about the displacement maping?

Could they hardwire (integrate in the flipper TnL engine) much more complex shadows/lightning systems (eg D3 or SC3 like ones, or even much more complex ones like UE3 or whatever is better) would that be possible while being flexible enought to suport very diferent games from Q4 to FC or Zelda and MP by just making variations on the lights (like in todays GC)?

About advanced image qualitity functions, like AA in a single pass, what can be done?

In the gekko things should be probably harder to coment but there go a few changes.

Could they make it dual core (or +)?

Could they add VMXs units to it? (there as a rumor about a 750GX that goes up to 1,6Ghz + VMX and dual core but I dont know if that as for real but as I side note , if it is real why not put Broadway faster?)

Could they have some kind of specialized HW (for specialized HW I am thinking eg in a SPU, but I am not saying a SPU along side with Gekkko) for some heavy tasks (like path finding, animation, physics, networking...), or can it have even some fixed function (would that be good?) for that (eg like very smal PPUs/AIPUs/...)(or DSPs).

Or a smal VMX array, could that be done? and really usefull for in game (eg that tasks above exemplified).

What is you educated guess? Can we really see (if expanded) a big boost in GC architeture, that can still be cheap to produce, programe and keep full BC.

Personally if the above can be made then meybe we can see a nice boost, yet it would be at the expense of flexibility of dev creativity/control. It may be a nice solution if one is so limited as this. What do you think?

Some info on GC

http://www.segatech.com/gamecube/overview/
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20021002/sauer_pfv.htm
http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=1566
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18282
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showthread.php?p=714395#post714395

 

[Bohdy]

Rebel Strike alone is the benchmark for near peak utilization of the GC architecture. There are other GC games that look better, but that is more due to artistic excellence than technical supremacy; no game is doing as much on an engine level as Rebel Strike.

And even if most games were to reach Rebel Strike levels, there is no saying that there would not be another technical renaissance after that as new more optimal techniques are discovered... just like what the PS2 experienced.

Makes think twice about the potential of the Rev even if it a tripple-charged GC if it were fully exploited.

 

[Edge]

http://www.segatech.com/gamecube/overview/

I'm glad you like my site.

When it comes to pushing the hardware that largely depends on the development dollars being put into it, and sad to say, with the GCN having superior hardware to the PS2, did not show through in the average game with lots of PS2 games looking superior. There are exceptions of course like Metroid Prime which looks awesome.

Anyway I hope Nintendo does well with their new console. I like the GCN, but just disappointed in some of the ports that barely touch the power of the system. EA's Medal of Honor on the GCN looks horrid as a good example.

I think the GCN is lacking in memory, which the Revolution will go a long way to resolving texture issues.

 

[see colon]

I think the GCN is lacking in memory, which the Revolution will go a long way to resolving texture issues.

well, if we believe the IGN articles (and i don't, at least not at face value) revolution will still have the same size texture cache and frame buffer, and presumibly the 24bit color depth limit as well. so the extra memory might do little to correct the gamecube's texture issues.

 

[Jabjabs]

EA's Medal of Honor on the GCN looks horrid as a good example.

EA's Need for speed series looked awful as well, they ruined the textures in all of them.

BTW, Segatech.com rocked, I used to go there all the time.

 

[fearsomepirate]

When it comes to pushing the hardware that largely depends on the development dollars being put into it, and sad to say, with the GCN having superior hardware to the PS2, did not show through in the average game with lots of PS2 games looking superior.

The average Cube game was an EA or Activision title ported over from the PS2. Since those were hardly the PS2's best-looking games, no big surprises there.

 

[swaaye]

Well the benchmarks for 'Cube IMO were Resident Evil 4, F-Zero GX, Rebel Strike, and maybe Waverace. Those games equal the best of Xbox, IMO. So if Rev is a better 'Cube (and it has to be obviously) then I see very little to worry about as to how well it will compete and look.

I am seriously not that impressed with 360's games. The 3D graphics improvements are not increasing as incredibly as they did in the late '90s and early '00s.

 

[see colon]

Well the benchmarks for 'Cube IMO were Resident Evil 4, F-Zero GX, Rebel Strike, and maybe Waverace. Those games equal the best of Xbox, IMO. So if Rev is a better 'Cube (and it has to be obviously) then I see very little to worry about as to how well it will compete and look.

i think you forgot Metroid Prime 2. on a personal note, i've owned MP2 for a while, but just started playing it last week because my 360 died, so i went back to try to catch up on games i have but haven't played through while it's out for repair. it's really impressive at pretty much every turn, and there's little beyond the color banding (the game looks gross underwater, especialy with the scan visor) and the lack or fluid surface simulation that i find "last gen" about it.

 

[swaaye]

RE4 had the color banding too. That was a shame. But I think it can be seen as certain that NewCube (heh) will not have that issue. I hope. LOL.

 

[pc999]

I'm glad you like my site.

I think the GCN is lacking in memory, which the Revolution will go a long way to resolving texture issues.

Let me congrat you, that article is really good probably one of the best I ever see about GC HW once it have a lot of good info but it is also very easy to understand.

well, if we believe the IGN articles (and i don't, at least not at face value) revolution will still have the same size texture cache and frame buffer, and presumibly the 24bit color depth limit as well. so the extra memory might do little to correct the gamecube's texture issues.

I guess it will do a lot better on textures...

"The 'Hollywood' is a large-scale integrated chip that includes the GPU, DSP, I/O bridge and 3MBs of texture memory," a studio source told us.

(BTW I suposse that texture cache = texture memory)

[Edit/] I reread the article and later they say ", not including the 3MB texture buffer on the GPU" althought this is not any quote from a dev so I dont know if it is a error from Matt or if texture cache |= texture memory, althought I think that probably is the same and I also have more hope in the above quote from a dev[/Edit]

BTW todays implementations of TC can do 8:1 with 32Bits textures (ie the same size than current gen GC 24bits textures), right?.

Once that I think that (for GC games) higher qualitity textures should improve a lot the visual qualitity of games, then Rev may improve a lot IMO.

OT/PS- sorry by just gave a reply now, but from some strange reason I never saw replys to this .

 

[StefanS]

(BTW I suposse that texture cache = texture memory)

[Edit/] I reread the article and later they say ", not including the 3MB texture buffer on the GPU" althought this is not any quote from a dev so I dont know if it is a error from Matt or if texture cache |= texture memory, althought I think that probably is the same and I also have more hope in the above quote from a dev[/Edit]

BTW todays implementations of TC can do 8:1 with 32Bits textures (ie the same size than current gen GC 24bits textures), right?.

Once that I think that (for GC games) higher qualitity textures should improve a lot the visual qualitity of games, then Rev may improve a lot IMO.

The texture memory thing is really confusing: A lot of people assume that 3MB texture memory means 1MB texture cache + 2 MB frame buffer just like GCN. But it could also mean 3MB texture cache. Moreover, nobody knows what happened to the "rumoured" 14MB edram on Hollywood. If the 24 MB 1T SQ(?)RAM main ram are as fast as the 64 external ram, one could assume that it might be embedded in Hollywood, etc. So far a lot is still unknown.

 

[mattcoz]

RE4 had the color banding too. That was a shame. But I think it can be seen as certain that NewCube (heh) will not have that issue. I hope. LOL.

If it's still using a 24bit frame buffer as the 3MB specs seem to imply, then the issue will still be there.

Speaking of embedded RAM, is it possible for them to add something like the AA logic on Xenos?

 

[NANOTEC]

If it's still using a 24bit frame buffer as the 3MB specs seem to imply, then the issue will still be there.

Speaking of embedded RAM, is it possible for them to add something like the AA logic on Xenos?

GC already supports AA.

 

[mattcoz]

GC already supports AA.

Well yeah, but the point is to improve performance.

 

[NANOTEC]

Well yeah, but the point is to improve performance.

Then you simply use more eDRAM cells + higher clock for higher bandwidth.

 

[mattcoz]

Then you simply use more eDRAM cells + higher clock for higher bandwidth.

Yes, that would help, but bandwidth isn't everything. So back to my question.

 

[pc999]

The texture memory thing is really confusing: A lot of people assume that 3MB texture memory means 1MB texture cache + 2 MB frame buffer just like GCN. But it could also mean 3MB texture cache. Moreover, nobody knows what happened to the "rumoured" 14MB edram on Hollywood. If the 24 MB 1T SQ(?)RAM main ram are as fast as the 64 external ram, one could assume that it might be embedded in Hollywood, etc. So far a lot is still unknown.

Indeed that article is really bad, it let people in worst conditions than if there is no article.

 

[NANOTEC]

Yes, that would help, but bandwidth isn't everything. So back to my question.

I could be wrong, but isn't bandwdidth everthing when it comes to AA using eDRAM?

 

[see colon]

I could be wrong, but isn't bandwdidth everthing when it comes to AA using eDRAM?

that depends on the type of AA you are using (multisample or supersample). but either way, with only about 2MB of framebuffer you'll only have room for a single frame with no AA anyway, so you'll have to start tiling you image anyway.

 

[fearsomepirate]

I didn't think AA was a big problem on the Cube. I definitely noticed jaggies when playing on my friend's living-room-scaled Jumbotron (noticed more compression artifacts due to the scaler chip than anything, though), but on a modestly sized TV, most games looked pretty smooth. More AA would definitely improve things, and I'd like to see additional fillrate and features for things like texture projection and normal mapping.

I always thought the Cube did some of the smoothest and prettiest water in current-gen games. In particular, Beyond Good & Evil had a really sweet water effect with very lifelike waves. It was definitely being done with multitexturing, since it tiled when viewed far away, but only the Cube version had the effect.