Do you consider Wii a next gen console?

[Entropy]

The Wii shows that
- no, CPU or GPU complexity is not a strong sales driver.
- no, online gaming is not a strong sales driver.
- no, hardware support for complex shader programming is not a strong sales driver.
- no, HD output is not a strong sales driver.

No, you can't make any of these statements based on the success of the Wii; that is, you can't find attributes that the Wii lacks and turn it around to mean that that attribute is not a strong sales driver.

I can't?
While you do have a theoretical point, from a practical standpoint, I think I can.

Compare the 360 to the Wii - similar prices, 360 launched well before, has a larger number of games available, is readily available, can be hands on tested in most every games store, and scores on every single one of the points above.

Yet the Wii outsells the 360.
How could that be if the above items really were strong sales drivers?
Either you have to go through major intellectual contortions to explain this fact, or you can, however grudgingly, admit that my points above may actually be true.

 

[Entropy]

No, because the XB360 and PS3 are selling to the existing console market that we know likes dual-analogue inputs and existing games. Unless there's reason to think the existing 120+ million console gamers will suddenly not want to play console games like they have done, there's no reason to doubt XB360s and PS3's success. With Wii, Nintendo have taken a different, unproven course. At the moment it's paying dividends because people are lapping them up, but it's a different market to the existing and traditional console base, and it's unproven if the non-traditional gamers have 'staying power'.

You have a point here, but that point can be turned around.

One of the major worries that gaming industry and gamers alike shared (and which got a lot of attention before the next-gen buzz) was that extrapolating into the future along the established lines led to a place nobody really wanted to be.

Radically rising production costs, creating more complex products for an audience that risked becoming more closed and less likely to expand. The rising production costs lead to less risk taking, causing sequelitis and me-too products, risking longer term disinterest from the customer base (as well as disenchantment from producers and designers as evidenced by some individuals here). The number of console and PC game players probably change fairly slowly, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a substantial turn around, that is, there's constantly people quitting and new people coming in. If the number of new players is dropping, what path do you take? Do you sell more strongly to the ones already part of the scene, creating more-and-better-of-the-same? Well, by your argument, that is the safe path that Microsoft and Sony has taken, and where in all probability a certain customer base is guaranteed. But...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Compare the 360 to the Wii - similar prices, 360 launched well before, has a larger number of games available, is readily available, can be hands on tested in most every games store, and scores on every single one of the points above.

Yet the Wii outsells the 360.
How could that be if the above items really were strong sales drivers?

Because they may not be as strong sales drivers for a machine that costs $100+ more, as Wiimote is for a $250 console. If the consoles were the same price, there'd be an argument. But minimum price to get a useable XB360 with a game is about $400 (Core + Memory card + game) versus $250 for Wii (console + Wiisports). Wherever you have more than one variable in effect, you can't draw valid comparisons, and we have a price differential here, as well as a software library differential. One could argue that those XB360 features do act as strong sales drivers because as a console it's selling well with a pretty hefty price-tag. If it's not for CPU or GPU complexity, online gaming, hardware support for complex shader programming and HD output, why is XB360 selling at all? Why aren't gamers buying PS2's instead?

 

[PatrickL]

But what becomes the price argument when you consider that Wiis are sold at higher prices than the premium on ebay here ?

 

[T Ghost]

How would the Wii sell if it had a US$400~US$600 price tag?

Add 2 extra scenarios to that:

Wii @ US$400~US$600 with PS3/360 graphics+Sound

Wii @ US$400~US$600 with Wii graphics+Sound

How would the Wii sell at these 2 scenarios?

Personally I'm not convinced that the Wii is selling what is selling ONLY because of the wiimote.

Let's wait and see till one of the other 2 consoles hit the US$249.99 mark...

And let's wait for the 3rd pty publishers to produce and release games that are not only exclusive to the Wii but that were primarily designed with the wiimote as the ONLY controller to be used in that project.

In a new world order where fierce competition is taking the multiplataform develping strategy to be more than an option, to be a financial need, I'm very skeptic that publishers are going to invest in a project that can't be ported to another system without creating another whole game (gameplay, level developing, everything) using only the original ip of the first.

On the other hand the theoretical lower cost of production for Wii games may help the case, but again, to be really developed (gameplay, level design, etc) with the Wiimote being the only controller type on that project means no easy, fast, cheap ports to other systems to be possible.

Yes, it is somewhat plausible that 3rd pty publishers may think in investing and releasing REAL Wii exclusives and then "port" (read develop another whole game from the game design point of view) the sucesses to PS3 and 360, but will those ports (that will certainly cost more to produce than the original Wii game) sell on 360/PS3?

Will the sales on only one console be enough fot the 3rd pty, public co. publishers' stock holders ?

If you think yes, why do you think that?

What's your opinions on these 2 points?

My opinion is that Nintendo is gonna struggle to convince 3rd ptys to invest, produce and release REAL Wiimote exclusive games and without that support the Wii cannot become the revolution in gaming it was meant to be.

Remember that 1st pty strong sales on NGC didn't help on nintendo gaining 3rd pty support and probably will not make a case here too.

 

[oli2]

Not that I'm saying you have to, but that's the argument for one definition of 'next-gen'.

I totally understand the argument (even if i don't share it) of the "power" in the definition of next-gen. I was just fighting the idea of the feature set be part of it, because i don't get how low-end multimedia capable machines relate to "next-gen".

People say that, but AFAIK it's been growing year on year since PS1 days. I don't know where the decline is...

I mentionned "decline" for Japan only, "stagnation" elsewhere. By the way, in economics, when the growth is slowling, it is never good ...

I don't know who the Wii is selling to. That's why I can't guess if it's a Furby phenomenum or a Barbie phenomenum. Bare in mind a lot of my posts are playing Devil's Advocate, arguing the other POV without neceesarily subscribing to it myself. For the record I voted Yes, Wii is a next-gen console based on my definition. But I can see the argument against and thoght I'd weigh in to discuss it a bit further

I knew ... but failed to express better my point.

there's no point pointing to Wii's curent sales and saying 'no-one cares about the XB360 and PS3's complex features.

I don't remember saying that ... I simply say i think this is less important than some here think. My view is backed up by the fact that the features were there for years. Of course, things may have changed and we will see millions people rushing for PS3 to be able to use "Home" and media streaming to PSP. Who knows ?

Not to my mind. Are those who bought DS just for Brain Training buying into other games on DS? Or are the constant software sales of more traditional games on DS the same gamers who owned GBA - not 'non-gamers'?

Maybe it is both of these.

Except they're not, as per Joshua's post. XB360 and PS3 have fancy HD graphics, online content galore, grandiose network plans, and 'stuff'. Wii has little interest in that stuff and instead offers a different control interface. The moment you lose the different control interface, you're left with something much closer to the PS2 and XB than the XB360 and PS3.

I can't believe we are speaking about a console anymore ... Like i stated, people have lots of devices by their home now to do "these" far better ...

 

[Todd33]

I say no and I think it's a fad.

Next gen is always pushing the envelope. Faster CPUs, better GPUs, etc. If you want to slap a motion sensor on a N64, does that make it "next gen"?

The Wii is like the Tickle Me Elmo extreme my wife bought the kids. Everyone wanted one, everyone bought one, it sold millions. Now it sits in some bin getting ignored.

It's great that old folks and non-gamers are enjoying the Wii, but that doesn't make is a next gen console, that makes it accessible to non-gamers, who I hope never drive the game market.

I had great respect for the GC, but a $250 rebadge of the GC with some motion sensing seems like a rip-off.

 

[Kaotik]

I say no and I think it's a fad.

Next gen is always pushing the envelope. Faster CPUs, better GPUs, etc. If you want to slap a motion sensor on a N64, does that make it "next gen"?

The Wii is like the Tickle Me Elmo extreme my wife bought the kids. Everyone wanted one, everyone bought one, it sold millions. Now it sits in some bin getting ignored.

It's great that old folks and non-gamers are enjoying the Wii, but that doesn't make is a next gen console, that makes it accessible to non-gamers, who I hope never drive the game market.

I had great respect for the GC, but a $250 rebadge of the GC with some motion sensing seems like a rip-off.

Have you actually any idea what's inside Wii?
You think they put those extra transistors (IIRC the numbers were ~70% more on CPU >100% more on GPU?) there just for fun, without them actually doing anything, or the higher clockspeeds on top of those?

 

[Sis]

I can't?
While you do have a theoretical point, from a practical standpoint, I think I can.

Compare the 360 to the Wii - similar prices, 360 launched well before, has a larger number of games available, is readily available, can be hands on tested in most every games store, and scores on every single one of the points above.

Yet the Wii outsells the 360.
How could that be if the above items really were strong sales drivers?

Theoretical but not practical? Isn't that like saying, "2+2=4 in theory, but in practice we can bend the rules"?

My point is that you can't take the lack of an attribute of a system and extrapolate out that "attribute X must not be a system seller". You ignore things such as: price, marketting, brand recognition, press, games, market segmentation, and probably a few other dozen nuanced factors in what makes a product successful, any of which may be able to overshadow another product.

Again, here's some of the things we can extrapolate using your logic:

-- no, systems with "inhaled" shell designs are not system drivers
-- no, systems larger than 3 dvd cases are not system drivers
-- no, systems with controls with more than 4 buttons are not system drivers

The point being that you can't take a system's attribute in isolation and treat it as something more than a part within a larger system.

Either you have to go through major intellectual contortions to explain this fact, or you can, however grudgingly, admit that my points above may actually be true.

I could also debate the points.

 

[LogisticX]

Has anybody drawn parallels to that of Apple's iWhatever series?

I don't know about you but something tells me that there is some kind of public perception going on. Maybe on some sub-conscious level, consumers attribute Nintendo's Wii in some manner to the quality that Apple products have. Whenever I look at the Wii, it just completely reminds me of Apple. I dont know how much or even if such perceptions would actually draw someone to purchase the console, but maybe something to think about.

It's weird.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

why is XB360 selling at all? Why aren't gamers buying PS2's instead?

Arnt there actually sold more ps2's worldwide each month than x360s? Anyway if you want to go as far as comparing prices I think you should look at manufactering costs and also calculate that into the hardware of the machine. Lots of people tend to call Wii not next gen because it doesnt has ps3 hardware but fail to mention ps3 is 4 times as expensive to build.

Personally I'm not convinced that the Wii is selling what is selling ONLY because of the wiimote.

Price indeed is a ''large'' factor I think.

Let's wait and see till one of the other 2 consoles hit the US$249.99 mark...

By the time that happens the cards probably already've been dealed. Not to mention that the Wii will also be cheaper by that time.

Next gen is always pushing the envelope. Faster CPUs, better GPUs, etc. If you want to slap a motion sensor on a N64, does that make it "next gen"?

Well isnt that the whole point of this thread? when can you call something next gen? for you apperantly that is hardware.

 

[bomlat]

Has anybody drawn parallels to that of Apple's iWhatever series?

I don't know about you but something tells me that there is some kind of public perception going on. Maybe on some sub-conscious level, consumers attribute Nintendo's Wii in some manner to the quality that Apple products have. Whenever I look at the Wii, it just completely reminds me of Apple. I dont know how much or even if such perceptions would actually draw someone to purchase the console, but maybe something to think about.

It's weird.

Probably because the wii have the highest quality level from the new gen.
Probably the quality ofthe wii is even higher than the quality of the ps3.
(quality is not equal with the horsepower.The wii have gold coated connectors everywhere,example)

And from the other side, the wii is designed around the customer,but the xb2 and the ps3 need a customer,who designed around the machine.

The root of the succes is simple:fulfill the demand of the customer.And the only console that can do this is the wii.

 

[bomlat]

Oh,and on other thing:
the diference between the ps1 and the ps2 was hige,but between the ps2 and the ps3 the diference is marginal.Probably everybody can say that "but there is the 2 time more cpu,10 times more mhz and so on",but the reality is that the quality of the visuals are going up by a linear equatation,but the feeling is growing only by an invert square.So, the real diference between a 3 times more powerfull system and a 10 times more powerful system is only a few percent.(10-15%)

Of course,the reason of this is the not proper human eyes.If you want to use the picture of the xb2 to feed an optical analyser,it is more fine than the wii.


I remember for the V1/V2 transition period,when the pc gfx moved from the 480 line to the 600 line.That was a much smaller thing,like today this HD flame.And I think this HD thing have less importance for the avarage customer than a new AA method for the PC.

 

[Entropy]

Because they may not be as strong sales drivers for a machine that costs $100+ more, as Wiimote is for a $250 console. If the consoles were the same price, there'd be an argument. But minimum price to get a useable XB360 with a game is about $400 (Core + Memory card + game) versus $250 for Wii (console + Wiisports). Wherever you have more than one variable in effect, you can't draw valid comparisons, and we have a price differential here, as well as a software library differential. One could argue that those XB360 features do act as strong sales drivers because as a console it's selling well with a pretty hefty price-tag. If it's not for CPU or GPU complexity, online gaming, hardware support for complex shader programming and HD output, why is XB360 selling at all? Why aren't gamers buying PS2's instead?

First off, around where I live, the price differential between a Wii and a 360 Core is $50. Except for the fact that you have to queue for a month or so to actually get a Wii.

So if the Wii sells at a brisker pace than the 360 then all the technical advantages the 360 has over the Wii, combined is valued at less than $50 by the market. You can put that at $100 if that is the actual number where you live.

This is a fact, as of right now. What I find disturbing is that it seems that many have a hard time accepting that, preferring to try to ignore that the Wii even exists, or try to say that it lives in its own particular niche where it cannot be compared to the other two. When reality doesn't match your preconception, respond by denying reality rather than reevaluating your world view. This is pathetic.

The Wii is a small, cool and quiet little device that offers a novel control scheme that allows a more physical (and sometimes more intuitive) interaction with the games than its predecessors. Buyers seem to value that a lot.

 

[Entropy]

I could also debate the points.

I think that would be more fruitful.

 

[Diamond.G]

I follow what wiki has listed on the subject. Therefore my answer is yes.

 

[Corwin_B]

"Next-gen" is a marketing only concept. Also, considering all "next-gen" offerings are now on the market, perhaps we could drop the concept entirely, or at the very least shelve it until we start speculating on the PS4, XBox720 and Wii2...

Anyway, I don't see how you can quantify "next-gen" as anything but "the systems coming after the current ones". Of course, if Sony or MS decide to go Nintendo's way for the "next gen" (ie add to power in a moderate way, focus on interface, profitable day one), you will see plenty of people change their tune on what constitutes next gen.

Here is a deal for everyone saying the Wii is not "next-gen" : give a list of measurable improvements from a generation to the next that the Wii lacks (ie "needs at least x times more FLOPS" or "needs to support a higher definition than the current gen" or "needs a storage x times larger than current gen"), and agree to have your benchmark applied to the next offerings from MS and Sony as well...

 

[fearsomepirate]

and agree to have your benchmark applied to the next offerings from MS and Sony as well...

As well as every console generation, ever. Might run into some trouble with Atari's 2600, 5200, and 7800 machines. ;-)

 

[Sis]

I think that would be more fruitful.

Which I thought I did. If this is the extent of a dialog with you, I'll try to remember not to waste me time in the future.

 

[Readykilowatt]

This is a fact, as of right now. What I find disturbing is that it seems that many have a hard time accepting that, preferring to try to ignore that the Wii even exists, or try to say that it lives in its own particular niche where it cannot be compared to the other two. When reality doesn't match your preconception, respond by denying reality rather than reevaluating your world view. This is pathetic.

The Wii is a small, cool and quiet little device that offers a novel control scheme that allows a more physical (and sometimes more intuitive) interaction with the games than its predecessors. Buyers seem to value that a lot.

I've said this time and time again. Many of these people have already bought an expensive HDTV and a PS3 to play games they expect to come to their system of choice. Mentioning the fact that these games may be cancelled for the PS3 and moved exclusively to a console that does not support HD is too much for them to bear. Trust me, you dont want to be in their shoes right now, you should pity them.

April 9 (Bloomberg) -- Video-game designer Nick Earl spent eight months holed up with his development team rushing to adapt ``The Godfather'' for Nintendo Co.'s Wii.

The reason for the long hours: Earl's employer, Electronic Arts Inc., like some of its competitors, underestimated demand for the Wii, whose motion-activated wand lets players wield a virtual sword, mimic real golf swings or strangle a victim. Instead, game makers put most of their resources into Sony Corp.'s PlayStation 3, which was released two days earlier in November with a more conventional hand controller.

Now, publishers are scrambling to get titles to the 3.56 million U.S. and Japanese Wii owners who have made the machine the top-selling game console this year.

"Those companies are backtracking,'' said Anthony Gikas, an analyst at Piper Jaffray & Co. in Minneapolis. "They're going to need to get their best-branded product on that platform. That will take a good nine to 12 months.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=amWmy6_JG16U&refer=home

There is no point arguing. Just sit back and watch the future "meltdowns". EDIT I'm still in shock that this thread is still open.