PS3: Word of Mouth & Hands-on (Rumors)

[Titanio]

So youre saying its no easier for developers who have been working on G70s (or at least access to final hardware of it, or at LEAST developer friends who have worked with it ) for the past 8 months to work with the RSX (assuming that G70 is its heritage of course)? The learning curve and understand strengths/weaknesses of the design isnt improved over a totally new design like Xenos?

I think he's saying that writing shaders for the two systems does not present differences like, for example, programming Xbox's GPU and PS2 did. The fact that Xenos's shaders are unified doesn't imply any differences in and of itself from a software perspective, for example. Certain performance characteristics and "quirks" may present themselves - and for both chips, I think, optimising around that will be the main source of "improvement" in terms of shading from generation to generation, asides from general improvements in algorithms (which is where we'll probably see the most significant improvement anyway). I'd agree that the main "learning experiences" on Xenos would probably be the eDram/tiling and the tesselator I guess.

 

[expletive]

I'd agree that the main "learning experiences" on Xenos would probably be the eDram/tiling and the tesselator I guess.

Seeing as the entire system's badnwidth is designed around proper use of that, isnt that a big deal?

I guess i'm saying whatever there is to learn for RSX, 95% of it is 'out there' already. Whereas with Xenos (+EDRAM), there is no reference from which to draw practical experience.

 

[Titanio]

Seeing as the entire system's badnwidth is designed around proper use of that, isnt that a big deal?

I guess i'm saying whatever there is to learn for RSX, 95% of it is 'out there' already. Whereas with Xenos (+EDRAM), there is no reference from which to draw practical experience.

From the perspective of just shader programming, it's no different, really. If you'd written shaders for PC cards, you'd have a leg up for both Xenos and RSX. It's really no different, the scope for improvement from generation to generation on both systems in terms of shader programming really comes mostly, I think, from algorithm improvement and innovation and optimising around the specific characteristics of both GPUs. On whether devs would benefit from the fact that G70 tech is already out there...first off, some devs working on PS3 may never have dealt with a GPU such as it before period, and amongst those who had dealt with PC GPUs previously (for PC development), most or none would have been able to get so close to the metal with and really focus on one chip before like this (and see its unique quirks and characteristics, and have to work with them to really maximise what you get out of it). Not to mention that specific RSX optimisation made by nVidia or Sony may throw off some of those characteristics a bit in the final silicon.

Although now I think of it, there may be some ways in which Xenos's setup might affect the sequence of rendering and shader passes employed, but the "characteristcs and quirks" I refer to earlier can also even do that, so..

 

[expletive]

From the perspective of just shader programming, it's no different, really. If you'd written shaders for PC cards, you'd have a leg up for both Xenos and RSX. On whether devs would benefit from the fact that G70 tech is already out there...first off, some devs working on PS3 may never have dealt with a GPU such as it before period, and amongst those who had dealt with PC GPUs previously (for PC development), most or none would have been able to get so close to the metal with and really focus on one chip before like this (and see its unique quirks and characteristics, and have to work with them to really maximise what you get out of it). Not to mention that specific RSX optimisation made by nVidia or Sony may throw off some of those characteristics a bit in the final silicon.

I think we're getting discussions mixed up. The point we were discussing at the time was not related to shaders, it was in reference to 1st gen, 2nd gen, and which games would look better at each consoles 'gen'. Somenoe made the point that they thought PS3 1st gen games would look better than 360 1st gen games and i agreed. Reasons being this RSX/Xenos supposition as well as the fact it seems that PS3 devs will have a bit longer with final or 'like' (final hardware clocked lower) hardware for longer.

So its a more encompassing discussion of the hardware and the GPUs than just programming shaders on RSX or Xenos...

 

[Titanio]

I think we're getting discussions mixed up. The point we were discussing at the time was not related to shaders, it was in reference to 1st gen, 2nd gen, and which games would look better at each consoles 'gen'. Somenoe made the point that they thought PS3 1st gen games would look better than 360 1st gen games and i agreed. Reasons being this RSX/Xenos supposition as well as the fact it seems that PS3 devs will have a bit longer with final or 'like' (final hardware clocked lower) hardware for longer.

So its a more encompassing discussion of the hardware and the GPUs than just programming shaders on RSX or Xenos...

Well agreed, solely looking at 1st gen PS3 games, they do have more time with the hardware, or something close to it, yes.

I guess the point I saw being made was that beyond gen 1 games, the scope for shader optimisation and improvement may not be a whole lot different on either system - that the main scope for improvement that's different on Xenos would be related to other features, like the eDram, tesselator etc. Which I was just saying I'd mostly agree with.

 

[expletive]

Well agreed, solely looking at 1st gen PS3 games, they do have more time with the hardware, or something close to it, yes.

I guess the point I saw being made was that beyond gen 1 games, the scope for shader optimisation and improvement may not be a whole lot different on either system - that the main scope for improvement that's different on Xenos would be related to other features, like the eDram, tesselator etc. Which I was just saying I'd mostly agree with.

Yep, we agree on both then. Do you think MEMEXPORT is siginificant in this regard as well? What would eb an example of some real examples of using it?

 

[Titanio]

Do you think MEMEXPORT is siginificant in this regard as well? What would eb an example of some real examples of using it?

I was going to type memexport alongside eDram and the tesselator, there, but since I know so little about it, I decided to file it under "etc" instead To be honest, I don't know. Dave's article includes some discussion of it, and it mostly seems to focus on doors it opens (or opens wider/more easily) in terms of gpgpu. How much will devs explore that? I'm not sure. We're missing details on it as far as I can see also - for example, just its limits, how many reads/writes you can do at any one point in time etc.

 

[Evil_Cloud]

hah, my cousins info is spreading here too now?

Ali is your cousin? Didn't know that. =)

 

[DuckThor Evil]

(June 19th is still spring).

It's summer!, and I don't care what kind of system you use to define it, June 19 is definately Summer, It's only few days away from midsummer which is when Sun is shining to the tropic of cancer which is the northhest point where it goes, so If you live in the northern hemisphere June 19 is summer!

 

[seismologist]

PS3 Info Before I Head Out Of Japan Friday Towards Noon, Thats Tokyo time. Have fun waiting a while longer boys. No way that thing is coming out in March. The games just arent there and lots of other isseus I cant delve into right now.

So this Fishie person has had hands on with all of the PS3 games in development and none of them will be ready by March? Can we quote him on that?

 

[Windfire]

I'm looking forward to the PS3 launching. Honestly.

It is either going to be as cool as the ******s say, which is good for all of us! It raises the bar. On the other hand, this ******ism almost makes me want the PS3 to fail.

The most ironic part is that there are people that really feel they are more justified as a person by having the PS3 beat the 360. Funny. 99.99% of us have no financial or professional gain either way.

edit: The ******ism is "f@nboyism".

 

[seismologist]

The most ironic part is that there are people that really feel they are more justified as a person by having the PS3 beat the 360. Funny. 99.99% of us have no financial or professional gain either way.

I dont think PS3 fans are the ones who are insecure. Most of us have nothing to lose right now.

If you look closely most of the ******s nowadays are 360 owners trying to downplay any good news about the PS3. It happens in almost every PS3 related thread.

 

[Nicked]

You know whats really funny?
All Fishie has done before is break media embargo (aka anybody in the media can) and relay information from interviews.

The guy couldn't even get into a Sony press conference because there werent enough seats, how important is that? He constantly dismisses the PS3 and hates Sony. And now hes being quoted as somebody important. Very funny.

Anyway, I take the news like this. If theres a delay, the console should be better for it, if theres no delay, hooray.

 

[typoEDR]

I'm sorry DeanoC. I'm no longer looking forward to Heavenly Sword, thanks to Fishie's shocking news. The Internets.... serious business.

I'm wearing out my Jump to Conclusions mat.

 

[weaksauce]

Isn't PS3 just scheduled for spring? It might as well come out in april or may.

Although, if they first launched in the US with UT2k7...

 

[ROG27]

It's summer!, and I don't care what kind of system you use to define it, June 19 is definately Summer, It's only few days away from midsummer which is when Sun is shining to the tropic of cancer which is the northhest point where it goes, so If you live in the northern hemisphere June 19 is summer!

dude...summer in the northern hemisphere starts June 21st every year (summer solstice...longest day of the year. Technically June 20th is still spring.

 

[hey69]

I love the sacrasm, but...

Seriously, this rumor crap is getting out of hand. I wouldn't be surprised if many games were very early in development. Does not mean a console cannot launch in spring (June 19th is still spring).

I wasnt sarcastic

 

[mckmas8808]

I still want to know what game Tommy was talking about. This is what they said next-gen is like. And damn I can't wait.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So youre saying its no easier for developers who have been working on G70s (or at least access to final hardware of it, or at LEAST developer friends who have worked with it ) for the past 8 months to work with the RSX (assuming that G70 is its heritage of course)? The learning curve and understand strengths/weaknesses of the design isnt improved over a totally new design like Xenos?

In the basics, no. When they had 9800s in their XB360 SDKs, if they wrote an engine that ran at 10 FPS, it'd port staight to Xenos with a substantial improvement.

The complexities of Xenos, the things that make it different, are eDRAM, MEMEXPORT, and US. US takes care of itself. eDRAM needs to be considered for AA and BW intensive tasks like alpha blending, so if you're not working on an intensive alpha-blended particle engine you don't really need to care about this. MEMEXPORT I don't think has any benefit for graphics rendering. I've still yet to hear some good examples of what it'll be used for! Regardless, it isn't essential, but an optional extra to get more than just the usual from the GPU.

If you don't use the special features of Xenos, you could lose relative image quality. You'll lose the free AA for example. But not using the special features isn't going to change the number of vertices you can transform, light, texture, shader and render. Basic graphics works the same. Also, the SDKs had a predicated tiling emulation too IIRC, which we're told isn't that difficulat to implement as long as it you start with it in mind, so devs could have written their Xenos friendly engine on the earlier SDKs and ported it over. I find it surprising therefore that PGR uses a downsized frambuffer to fit into AA and they didn't develop a tiled renderer; there doesn't appear to be an SDK limitation that prevented this.

Comparing Xenos to GS, GS was a totally alien device to what people were used to. You had to think and write differently to use it. It offered a steep learning curve and that's why first gen games looked pants. RSX is offering a traditional interface and so first gen titles should get as much out of it as their PC counterparts. Likewise Xenos offers a traditional interface (from what I know) and you can get as much from it from a DX engine as you can get from a 'similar' PC part. Not using predicated tiling and MEMEXPORT isn't going to quarter the vertex tranform rate or pixel shading power. The basics of graphics rendering will be as good whether the special sauces are applied or not. And in the example of rendering a tree, Xenos isn't at a programmability disadvantage to draw a load of branches and leaves vs. RSX. If this talk of a tree looking better on PS3 vs. XB360 is true, it's not due to the GPUs. Both are very capable. I'll even say both CPU's are very capable, and the reason the PS3 example looked better was just it was better written. Take a look at Oblivion and you'll see plenty of moving trees

 

[mckmas8808]

And notice guys Tommy even has the comment that "he is not saying the 360 can't do this" in his post.