I never said it was, you were saying Tricos AI was rubbish and I was saying that they have got the AI spot on with an untrained animal...will be interesting to see if over the course of the game the 'randomness' becomes less frequent.
Non-player Criticisms of The Last Guardian *pile*
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I never said it was, you were saying Tricos AI was rubbish and I was saying that they have got the AI spot on with an untrained animal...will be interesting to see if over the course of the game the 'randomness' becomes less frequent.
Perhaps making my point more succinct will make it easier to process:
In SotC, the end user has direct control of Agro.
In TLG, the end user doesn't have direct control of Trico.
Not that hard to understand, is it?
I don't understand why such a trivial issue gets you so mad. The wait for this game must have been very hard.
I never said you said it was, just like I never said the AI is rubbish.
Trico is NOT a horse. Its a giant beast. Why should you have complete control of Trico?Perhaps making my point more succinct will make it easier to process:
In SotC, the end user has direct control of Agro.
In TLG, the end user doesn't have direct control of Trico.
Not that hard to understand, is it?
I don't understand why such a trivial issue gets you so mad. The wait for this game must have been very hard.
I never said you said it was, just like I never said the AI is rubbish.
Ueda was also aiming for more realism with the horse in sotc. It's not a car. You don't have a direct control whether it's a horse or a big cat. The concept is simply pushed much further in TLG. Obviously because it's not a horse, as you say.
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Who says you should?
Then explain your objection to trico's control.
This.
@OCASM you have stated poor design, that trico does nothing but get in the way and all you can do is yell at it and it often doesn't do what you want. (sorry of I summed that up in you calling the AI rubbish but not quite sure how else to sum it up). From what I've read trico acts exactly as I'd expect from an untrained beast that is significantly larger than something trying to coerce it into doing things.
As I said, I have a dog (1 year old) and it misbehaves, gets in the way and definitely ignores my orders although she clearly loves me and will also do I as order quite often, this is after a year of training an animal that's not really known any other life, is significantly smaller than me and totally relies on me to survive (food, water and exercise)...so I'm totally confused what your complaint is because (IMHO) it's coming across as shit-posting for the sake of it?
Let's review my posts so that you guys don't misunderstand:
Regarding the boy's controls:
- Lack of responsiveness is deliberate, has nothing to do with the design being "old" (1).
Regarding Trico's "controls":
-I dispute @bunge 's claim that Trico is similar to Agro. I make the argument that Agro's behavior is completely deterministic while Trico's isn't, making them fundamentally different (2,4,5).
- @goonergaz You're mixing Trico's behavioral realism with game design. Being realistic != good design. I'd say that a game that causes frustration because of it's own mechanics and level design = bad design.
Regarding design:
I dispute the claim that blames gamers's alleged ADD for their frustration with this game:
- The player learns the mechanics just fine but the game constantly fails to respond when he/she executes them. (3).
- A stubborn AI that gets in the way of the player progressing in the game is bad design (2).
Regarding the framerate:
- It sucks (1).
It's like a purity test: "praise TLG or you're a shitposter"
Regarding the boy's controls:
- Lack of responsiveness is deliberate, has nothing to do with the design being "old" (1).
Regarding Trico's "controls":
-I dispute @bunge 's claim that Trico is similar to Agro. I make the argument that Agro's behavior is completely deterministic while Trico's isn't, making them fundamentally different (2,4,5).
- @goonergaz You're mixing Trico's behavioral realism with game design. Being realistic != good design. I'd say that a game that causes frustration because of it's own mechanics and level design = bad design.
Regarding design:
I dispute the claim that blames gamers's alleged ADD for their frustration with this game:
- The player learns the mechanics just fine but the game constantly fails to respond when he/she executes them. (3).
- A stubborn AI that gets in the way of the player progressing in the game is bad design (2).
Regarding the framerate:
- It sucks (1).
It's like a purity test: "praise TLG or you're a shitposter"
Repeating leads nowhere.
You claim to have issues with the game. you haven't played the game.
You refuse to listen to those who are actually playing. We are explaining to you that trico's behaviour/AI is an integral part of the narrative. The game wouldn't work otherwise. You can't figure this out, since you haven't played the game.
Your sweeping claims about the AI are bogus. We know, because we are not having the AI issues you describe.
You claim to have issues with the game. you haven't played the game.
You refuse to listen to those who are actually playing. We are explaining to you that trico's behaviour/AI is an integral part of the narrative. The game wouldn't work otherwise. You can't figure this out, since you haven't played the game.
Your sweeping claims about the AI are bogus. We know, because we are not having the AI issues you describe.
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Does it? Because for those that played it the game captures realistically the behavior of the animal.
Well does it? Or is it simply the player's error?
Basically you want to tell everyone that the game sucks and point all the reasons that support this?
If the game is good and you are telling people that the game they are enjoying sucks you will obviously get the respective responses.It's like a purity test: "praise TLG or you're a shitposter"
If you're going to type words into my mouth can you at least wear latex gloves so I can't taste the shit that you're typing?
Thanks.
Not intrinsically. It may frustrate, but that's not bad design. Worst case, it's design that doesn't suit some people. However, games have elements of frustration in the problem solving and skills, which is necessary for the sense of reward on succeeding. If everything was mind-numbingly easy and automatic, we'd have Cookie Clicker and nowt else. Good/bad design comes down to how well the game design is communicated, implemented, and whether it resonates with the player or not, which is subjective - Person A can like a mechanic that Person B hates.
From the sounds of it, many are enjoying the AI aspect, making it good design (implementation). That's in contrast to something like Black and White which was just a broken AI and universally hated, which was bad implementation of a good design idea. If you don't like it (having played it and given it time to learn how to work with the creature), that's your prerogative, but you'd be very wrong to call it bad design just because it doesn't appeal to you when so many others like it.
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Strawman. Never have I disputed the fact that Trico is designed to act like a stubborn wild beast.
Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Either the AI behaves like a realistic wild beast that constantly disobeys the boy's commands OR it behaves like a tamed animal that never gets in the way of the player progressing.
Which is it?
Realistic animal AI = good game design?
The AI always obeys the boy's commands?
Just stating a fact. The framerate does suck.
Except I didn't. They jumped my throat simply for saying that Trico's mechanics are fundamentally different than Agro's. What a crime. Why have a civil discussion when you can simply throw ad hominems at the dissenter?
Here are your words:
In SotC, the end user didn't have direct control of Agro.
In TLC, the end user doesn't have direct control of Cat-thingy.
The first statement is completely false. Agro is under direct control of the player and it's AI is deterministic. Nothing like Trico. Getting angry will not change that.
Difficulty is not the issue. The AI refusing to allow the player to progress is. There's no satisfaction in waiting for the AI to finally decide to do what you want it to do.
Seems like people like Trico's AI by itself, not it's relation to the game design:
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Deleted member 11852
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Having trained a few dogs and cats, both. Unless both you and the animal are very well trained, it will not always do what you want it too or what it has been trained to do. It's a living, wilful creature. Some days it'll be excited, pissed off or stressed and at those times it's behaviour will be more erratic.
'Never work with children or animals' - that maxim exists because no animal can be relied upon 100% to do what it's supposed to (which also applies to humans!).
Yes if that's the intention. How about a game where your troops can get scared and not do what you want them to (XCom) leading to the end of the mission and failure? It becomes a mechanic you have to adapt to. That relationship with the animal including its independence is part of the game design, just as owning a pet and having it not do what it's told 100% of the time is part of the experience of owning a pet and why people don't get pet robots.
I agree that the response has been strangely emotional.
We have exact quotes from players to the contrary in this thread. Why are you dismissing them? People in this thread, playing the game, are getting along fine with Trico and enjoying the AI and the game design surrounding that. Ergo it is not bad game design. There's zero way to argue it's bad game design when the purpose of game design is to entertain people and people are getting entertained by TLG!
Really? I mean train cats? Its more that they train you ;D
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Deleted member 11852
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You can train cats, it's just most people stop at the litter box. Treats and a clicker is all you need. Oh, and patience!
Our cat has been trained to stay at floor level when in the kitchen, that the bed is off limits and that it can't scratch or bite anything in the house - unless it is given to him. Having had a lot of cats, believe me that the training investment is worth it long term!
You guys know this will not stop, right?
How about spinning off the discussions that are general preconceptions of what game design should/shouldn't be, and leave the people currently playing or at least interested, discuss their impressions of this specific game?
It's not possible to assess what works and doesn't work in TLG without playing it and get far enough in the game. It's pushing the boundaries enough that it has no comparisons. It's also difficult to argue against misconceptions without getting into spoilers.
How about spinning off the discussions that are general preconceptions of what game design should/shouldn't be, and leave the people currently playing or at least interested, discuss their impressions of this specific game?
It's not possible to assess what works and doesn't work in TLG without playing it and get far enough in the game. It's pushing the boundaries enough that it has no comparisons. It's also difficult to argue against misconceptions without getting into spoilers.
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This was my point about Agro. The player had direct control of the reins but not of the horse. It would be like a game where you had direct control of the sails but not of the ship.
I find the investigation of that relationship very interesting.
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