Nintendo announce: Nintendo NX

[Deleted member 13524]

I'm missing as to what is different unless there's hidden features in your definition of "complete game console package" that you aren't spelling out.

1 - Runs Nintendo IP
2 - Controllers detach on each side and each half becomes a single-player controller for instant 2-player input.
3 - Easier to configure, install, update, maintain, etc. than a PC
4 - Most probably it'll be several times more powerful than a BayTrail for 3D games. Those 4 EUs at ~650MHz are about as powerful as a Vita AFAIK.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

nobody dares to comment on my SLI'ish idea of coupling several X1?

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1933263/

 

[MrFox]

All of those things exist only if you are using that to play XB1 games.
If you use it to play W10 games, you don't need an XB1.
It's a PC in it's own right, it requires no additional hardware to play games on.

How is a tablet PC with the controller attachment less than a "complete game console package"?

You can plug it into a TV if you like, you can detach the controllers if you like.

I'm missing as to what is different unless there's hidden features in your definition of "complete game console package" that you aren't spelling out.

The Atom in this W10 tablet won't run shit, that's what the reviews are saying. They say it's only useful for streaming from XB1/PC and it can't run any games at usable frame rates and it also overheats. It has a horrible battery life. Not sure what W10 games you think it can run, let alone for years to come, so I'm assuming this is being used for streaming alone.

A console is a walled garden, with physical media, effective copy protection, no online DRM, a single hardware target, first party publishers, and a steady stream of games for years. All games are optimized and well tested for that platform.

 

[CSI PC]

Yes, they are, however:
1 - the RX480 isn't GCN2 (which should be closest GCN version towards the XBone), it's GCN4 which brings significantly higher performance-per-clock and performance-per-GFLOP.
........
3 - Doom is definitely not making heavy use of FP16 for pixel shaders (probably none at all), otherwise that GTX 1060 could be hilariously stuck in single-digit FPS because nvidia dwarfed the FP16 capabilities for the consumer desktop Pascal GPUs.

Well to use the Gflop comparison in way you do which I understand can make sense with normal GPUs (and tbh I think it is closer than 50%), we need to see and use the actual performance of the Nvidia Shield TV console relative to its FP32 512Gflops as it is more indicative than a full blown GPU and unfortunately try to find some kind of baseline comparison to the other consoles, unless anyone knows of a comparison between Shield TV and a PC using either Nvidia or AMD GPUs with a game supported by both platforms.
You also need to consider that Tegra is pretty much stripped down with only 1 GPC with multiple SM, this could change with Tegra X2/Parker but we will not know much more until August.
Regarding FP16, can anyone say how much of a game can make better use of it than FP32?
Cheers

 

[Deleted member 13524]

Regarding FP16, can anyone say how much of a game can make better use of it than FP32?

When that question arose in this forum because of PowerVR Series 6/7's dedicated FP16 units, a number of the forum's develoeprs spoke up in support of FP16 and claimed they would definitely make use of them for pixel shaders if they had the chance.

 

[BRiT]

ugg. Really hating this concept of AMD flops and Nvidia flops. It really needs to die. That's like saying there are UK meters and CAD meters. They are the same meters! But people treating this like Imperial vs Metric but calling it the same name! In this case flops!

At the end of the day it's just math, if the formula to calculate flops should add a variable like utilization or something factor it in! There needs to be some "variable" that can help translate flops, as flops are a base measurement, it's just not being calculated correctly and it's highly confusing!

As far as I recall, The FLOPS quoted for Tegra are FP16 flops and NOT FP32 flops. Hence why we are saying the FLOPS are NOT comparable in this situation between Nintendo NX and XBox One or Sony PS4.

 

[CSI PC]

As far as I recall, The FLOPS quoted for Tegra are FP16 flops and NOT FP32 flops. Hence why we are saying the FLOPS are NOT comparable in this situation between Nintendo NX and XBox One or Sony PS4.

Nvidia quotes both in their whitepaper, and that figure is also reflected with the Shield TV console.
The Shield TV (Maxwell) is meant to be FP32 peak 512Gflops and double for FP16, Tablet (Kepler) is FP32 peak 365Gflops with same FP16 as it does not have the mixed precision Cuda cores.

Cheers

 

[RDGoodla]

There are two other things restricting NX from porting current generation games.

First is RAM, PS4 has 5GB for a single game, what about NX? Second, due to reasonable power consumption CPU of NX may consume 5W at most, Let's say 1.2 GHz of quad-core A57. How much performance difference compared with Jaguar CPU?

 

[rabidrabbit]

The home dock must function as an external gpu (and cpu?)... a bit like for example that MSI gaming dock for laptops. If not, I'll be very disappointed.
The base handheld would be sold separately and might cone with a basic model dock that only lets you connect to tv. The power+ dock would be released later.
The detachable controllers don't make much sense however, but what if not only the controllers were detachable, but also the processing unit of the handheld:
In home use you'd detach the processing unit and put it in the dock, leaving you essentially a WiiU type controller.
For portable use you put the processing unit back in the controller but you'd also have the option to leave the controller part at home, making it essentially a tablet, or maybe even a stripped down mobile phone if the screen is some less than 6" and has a sim slot. It would not necessarily need sms and traditional phone functions as people use them less in favour of other messaging services.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

There are two other things restricting NX from porting current generation games.

First is RAM, PS4 has 5GB for a single game, what about NX? Second, due to reasonable power consumption CPU of NX may consume 5W at most, Let's say 1.2 GHz of quad-core A57. How much performance difference compared with Jaguar CPU?

AFAIR, the Jaguar cores are a lot closer to the Cortex A53 in performance/clock, and I bet even 8 Cortex A53 at 2GHz will consume a lot less than 5W, especially if they're produced using FinFet.

 

[Goodtwin]

How? You lose the tablet functionality when playing on a TV.

I was speaking from the idea that the hardware fits the bill for offscreen play and offers a superior console experience to that of the Wii U. My point was regardless if you were a 3DS or Wii U gamer, this idea for NX seems like it should have great appeal to both crowds. Rumors are circulating that its going to be cheaper than most expect. Can you imagine if the NX launches for a sub $199 price, with Zelda, Splatoon, and Monster Hunter? It would sell 5 million units in Japan alone in the first year. Nintendo needs to plan to support NX without western devs, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't actively pursue them. Its Nintendo's job to make sure there is plenty of exclusive software during the launch year that builds a userbase quickly, and if western devs see a successful platform, they will certainly take a look. I think EA Sports is the one that Nintendo needs to target the most. Having Madden and Fifa are important, and porting to the Tegra X1 shouldn't be a nightmare. Which brings up another point, the development tools need to be developer friendly this time. Nintendo has a track record of poor dev kits, especially at launch. Even if developers have to scale some things back because of the lower performing hardware, if the dev tools make the process fairly straight forward, they will be more likely to test the waters.

 

[Blazkowicz]

External GPU or whole system in the dock?
That makes me think of Sega 32X.

I think the dock should be dirt cheap and provide power, hdmi and at most some USB or ethernet.. as well as cooling, if you're looking for a performance increase.

You would be able to never use a dock, or to the contrary keep several docks plugged around TVs and desktop monitors.

I think the Wii U sucked, because it's basically made of two different consoles that have to be tethered together to play a game. Well, it's too wasteful and complex.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

You know what seems to go very well with an external GPU? The Tegra X2.

Drive PX2 has each Tegra X2 connecting to a ~3TFLOP discrete GPU, so the I/O support is already there.
The weirdly placed dual Denver cores could be there with the sole purpose of feeding the external GPU, while the quad Cortex A57 took care of all other tasks like OS, physics, audio, etc.
In handheld mode, the Denver cores wouldn't even power up.

Just a thought.


I don't think there will be an external box with a pumped-up GPU, though. But if there was, it looks like Tegra X2 would be the best candidate.

 

[wco81]

I would think some people would just play the NX in handheld mode, with the TV on showing some TV content, rather than dock the NX to play in console mode.

People are used to looking at their phones and tablets while watching TV now.

 

[CSI PC]

LOL that is what I have been saying for awhile now, they can use the MXM connection and put it into the base-docking station and make the console a 2-part solution where one can buy the handheld separately or with 'home console' bundle with the base-docking station augmenting the GPU similar to we see with PX2 (albeit with a weaker GPU than PX2).
This is one benefit of X2 over X1, which could only a 256 FP32 Cuda core SoC solution.
Whether they do this who knows, they may not need to do this if Tegra X2 is a bit of a surprise and can use advanced power profiling-management when mobile.

I am still not sure though how flexibile a game would be if it had drastic GPU performance between docked and mobile, not sure developers would be keen on dealing with this and meeting best visuals-game design for both situations.
Cheers

 

[Deleted member 13524]

LOL that is what I have been saying for awhile now, they can use the MXM connection and put it into the base-docking station and make the console a 2-part solution where one can buy the handheld separately or with 'home console' bundle with the base-docking station augmenting the GPU similar to we see with PX2.

I know and I was entertaining your idea. But I don't think the NX will be like that because:

I am still not sure though how flexibile a game would be if it had drastic GPU performance between docked and mobile, not sure developers would be keen on dealing with this and meeting best visuals-game design for both situations.

I don't know how the devs would like this bit at all. Then again... they are going to be working on two distinct performance targets for Sony and Microsoft both..
But I don't think Nintendo will launch a 4 TFLOPs console, even if sold in two parts.

 

[Blazkowicz]

LOL that is what I have been saying for awhile now, they can use the MXM connection and put it into the base-docking station and make the console a 2-part solution where one can buy the handheld separately or with 'home console' bundle with the base-docking station augmenting the GPU similar to we see with PX2 (albeit with a weaker GPU than PX2).
This is one benefit of X2 over X1, which could only a 256 FP32 Cuda core SoC solution.
Whether they do this who knows, they may not need to do this if Tegra X2 is a bit of a surprise and can use advanced power profiling-management when mobile.

I am still not sure though how flexibile a game would be if it had drastic GPU performance between docked and mobile, not sure developers would be keen on dealing with this and meeting best visuals-game design for both situations.
Cheers

A boring technicality : Tegra 3, K1 and X1 do support an external GPU, simply using - you might guess it - PCIe.
Nowadays, the UEFI standard might even allow to hook up most vanilla graphics cards, you avoid the need of something like the graphics cards with a Macintosh BIOS, used in the 2000s.

 

[BRiT]

Some more of my musings ...

There will not be multiple levels of graphics fidelity based on the Nintendo NX being in mobile mode or in the dock. The reason for this is because of the limited amount of data that can be stored on the cartridge. The same assets will be used when in mobile mode as in docked mode.

 

[orangpelupa]

I'm just throwing out ideas here, but what if the NX portable is a separate product from the home console, but can be plugged in to the home console to function as a screen for VR with a headset accessory. Kind of like how Gear VR functions for Samsung mobile phones.

The detachable controllers make more sense this way too, as they can function in 3D space like the HTC Vive controllers, and the 3D hardware in the handheld might somehow assist the rendering to make VR possible at all.

Though, if the resolution is correct that might be a bit on the low side for a comfortable VR experience.

They can circumvent that by rendering lower than native when in mobile mode. And only run at native when docked or when used as vr device.

Running lower than native in small screen device only give really little blur. I guess the blur can be reduced with a bit of post processing or with better scaling algorithm.

 

[Rangers]

There are two other things restricting NX from porting current generation games.

First is RAM, PS4 has 5GB for a single game, what about NX? Second, due to reasonable power consumption CPU of NX may consume 5W at most, Let's say 1.2 GHz of quad-core A57. How much performance difference compared with Jaguar CPU?

Given Polygon pointed out Shield Doom BFG, while 1080/60, is running at significantly reduced graphical quality to the PS3/360 version, it might be better served asking how well NX (assuming Tegra X1) can run last gen ports...

According to Anandtech Tegra X1 has 25.6 GB memory bandwidth (LPDDR4 on 64 bit bus). I have no idea if that's the same configuration as in NX, but without EDRAM it would be at a significant effective bandwidth deficit to PS3/360. PS3 with it's dual buses.

Of course, I assume X1's compression tech is much greater...but it bears thinking this may be yet another Nintendo "sidegrade". Although, realistically, it should outperform PS3/360 clearly for a change.

It does show Zelda NX probably isn't killing the Wii U version, and makes sense why there's an NX version bandied about rather than a whole new game or something.

Assuming it isn't neutered for handheld power savings? The another option being to run the same games as a handheld with reduced graphical quality versus when docked.

The reason for this is because of the limited amount of data that can be stored on the cartridge.

A 32 GB cart is a lot isn't it? It actually seems like almost overkill for this amount of power, if anything. It's approaching Blu Ray size.

Regardless, it is nice as mentioned on GAF seeing Nintendo have a modern architecture for a change.