Professionalism in public statements & spinning in a spin-off thread

[Shifty Geezer]

Also lets not overlook cultures. Some cultures are a lot blunter than others (Northern England) and people converse with others who have thick skins and don't take offence. What may seem like an insult to some folk may look nothing like to others, including the person who said it. Just because people are using English, doesn't mean they're all talking the same language.

 

[dobwal]

Actually..
Freedom of speech is freedom to insult... or be ignorant.. or insert other negative thing here.
But that doesn't mean you are free of the consequences.

Actually freedom of speech revolves around what laws can be enacted by gov't regarding speech. There is no such thing as "freedom of speech" when it comes to private enterprise.

If freedom of speech was an all encompassing right, there wouldn't be any consequences.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

The fact that he is from Sweden doesn't excuse him, if nothing it's an "aggravating factor".

That's ludicrous. Do you hold yourself to the standards and expectations of foreign cultures in all aspects of your life? I seriously doubt it. What is (and what is not) acceptable will be shaped mostly by the society and culture in which you live and work.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

If we're to expand the point beyond the statement that was made, how many people would be offended or consider it unprofessional if a developer were to say the following on Twitter:

"No, the PSVR headset simply won't be able to run games to the same standard as the Oculus Rift with a 980 installed. PS4 isn't as powerful."

Is that also considered unprofessional?

If the developer had a working business relationship with Sony that would definitely be unprofessional if it wasn't coming from Sony itself. But still not as unprofessional as the DICE tweet due to the way it was worded.

If the developer didn't have a working business relationship with Sony then it's not unprofessional. What made the DICE tweet unprofessional was that it is commenting on a product that is the basis of the working business relationship between DICE and Microsoft.

You expect things like that from indie developers who sometimes don't give a damn. Not from a AAA developer.

That said, many unprofessional things are said in tweets (hence some companies forbid company employees from having a Twitter account and having one is ground for job termination), so in that sense it is relatively un-remarkable. But people have and will continue to be fired for less unprofessional comments than that. Not saying all companies, obviously, but some will.

Regards,
SB

 

[Cjail]

That's ludicrous. Do you hold yourself to the standards and expectations of foreign cultures in all aspects of your life? I seriously doubt it. What is (and what is not) acceptable will be shaped mostly by the society and culture in which you live and work.

What!?

 

[PixResearch]

I genuinely dislike the linking of people's personal comments to their employers.

The guy's a dev who to be fair didn't say anything that isn't well known (XBox One is lower "horsepower" than PS4) and the API overhead on consoles is already low so that difference won't be mitigated significantly by DX12. Yes, what he said wasn't what you'd expect from the company Dice but that's not what he did. He said it on his personal twitter account. The account even spells it out:

The latest Tweets from Alan Kertz (@Demize99). Personal Tweets, Random Musings, All Thoughts my Own. Sweden.

The disclaimer's may no longer be appropriate for the modern world but in reality he's an employee. He's not the company and his comments are his own. Individuals should be allowed to have an opinion without having to carry the weight of their employers (imo).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yep. Modern thinking is your company owns you. Company influence should stop outside of work hours and work activities. One should be allowed to say or do whatever one wants in one's personal time, even blogging about one's shit bosses and lousy company activities. It's no different in principle to talking down the pub about one's shit bosses and lousy company activities.

 

[dobwal]

Yep. Modern thinking is your company owns you. Company influence should stop outside of work hours and work activities. One should be allowed to say or do whatever one wants in one's personal time, even blogging about one's shit bosses and lousy company activities. It's no different in principle to talking down the pub about one's shit bosses and lousy company activities.

Why shouldn't any of us be allowed to say anything we want (that will have a negative impact on our employers) outside of work hours in a public forum where what we say can be linked to us as employees of our companies?

I am not owned by any company. I work based on a mutual agreement with my employer and I am free to end our relationship if I feel my employment doesn't benefit me. My employer is free to end our agreement for the same reason.

Would you be okay if your employer went on twitter or a blog and complained about your poor skills and it got pick up by internet and turned into a bunch of memes...

I don't often work but when I do, its harder than Shifty Geezer.

Would you like to be in that situation only to be told you couldn't terminate your employment because your boss only makes disparaging comments about you during your off hours?

 

[Globalisateur]

Frostbite technical director was kinda unprofessional too already in 2013 (he is Swedish too) :

Mantle and Playstation 4 will drive our future Frostbite designs & optimizations

A real politician would have mentioned XB1 or not mentioned PS4 at all.

 

[London Geezer]

The question here is not whether you should or should not have freedom to say whatever you want. You are.

But is it unprofessional to slag off a competitor/partner especially in a public forum? Pretty much!

 

[Shifty Geezer]

People only grumble about things that are wrong in their view. Companies wouldn't need to hush their employees from bad mouthing the management if the management was actually good. If I'm a slacker, I shouldn't be surprised to hear people calling me out as such. Obviously when it becomes libel or serious, that's something else. But just airing one's views is an entitlement to being human. Especially when talking about a product in a competitive market place. Everyone else is entitled to an opinion on whether XB1 is faster than PS4 or not. Why shouldn't game devs, or employees of either company, or AMD employees, or friends and families of the same? 'Professionalism' means one has to keep one's mouth shut, but being human means one wants to share one's views. We have anonymous internet personalities to allow that without professional repercussions. Those repercussions shouldn't happen IMO, although that's headed to RSCPA talk.

Putting it another way, the relationship between MS as a corporate entity and DICE as a corporate entity and EA as a corporate entity should not be affected in the slightest by what an individual of either company says. If MS were to penalise DICE somehow because their console having less flops was called out as having less flops, that'd be the height of unprofessionalism. Corporate dealings should be on the level of contracts and rapport. I'd even say a lot of 'professional misconduct' repercussions are actually people acting like emotional people. I've seen management use the 'professionalism' card to counter actions they dislike, and of course they turn a blind eye to unprofessionalism they don't mind or are part of.

 

[London Geezer]

We all slag off our own management, competitors or clients. It's natural. And unprofessional.

A bit like taking stationary from the office. Or printing personal things we then take home. Is it 'OK'? More or less, no one really cares. Is it theft? Yes!

 

[iroboto]

We all slag off our own management, competitors or clients. It's natural. And unprofessional.

A bit like taking stationary from the office. Or printing personal things we then take home. Is it 'OK'? More or less, no one really cares. Is it theft? Yes!

Lol indeed.

Most people are extremely unprofessional with their family airing out dirty laundry in front of others. It's not exactly a terrible thing to practice professionalism, we do it because it shows we have some form of empathy.

It's very much the same reason we teach our kids to say sorry after they've done something wrong; you need to teach them to empathize.

That being said, no the company does not own you dobwal, you are perfectly free to say whatever you like in a public forum. But you are not free of its consequences, nor should you be.

It would appear the consequences to the DICE employees are rather minimal; just a thread about their tweets on B3D, some angry fanboys on Twitter.

We are all adults here, I imagine the mean age is between late 20s to mid 40s. At this point in time your views on how you should present yourself will be your own. There is no real way to behave. There are only realistically consequences. Like this man received:

http://globalnews.ca/news/1993793/mlse-willing-to-ban-anyone-yelling-fhritp-near-facilities/

Fired.

Should he be fired? This mans views clearly do not represent his company, but this company does not want to employ a man with these views.

 

[dobwal]

People only grumble about things that are wrong in their view. Companies wouldn't need to hush their employees from bad mouthing the management if the management was actually good. If I'm a slacker, I shouldn't be surprised to hear people calling me out as such. Obviously when it becomes libel or serious, that's something else. But just airing one's views is an entitlement to being human. Especially when talking about a product in a competitive market place. Everyone else is entitled to an opinion on whether XB1 is faster than PS4 or not. Why shouldn't game devs, or employees of either company, or AMD employees, or friends and families of the same? 'Professionalism' means one has to keep one's mouth shut, but being human means one wants to share one's views. We have anonymous internet personalities to allow that without professional repercussions. Those repercussions shouldn't happen IMO, although that's headed to RSCPA talk.

Putting it another way, the relationship between MS as a corporate entity and DICE as a corporate entity and EA as a corporate entity should not be affected in the slightest by what an individual of either company says. If MS were to penalise DICE somehow because their console having less flops was called out as having less flops, that'd be the height of unprofessionalism. Corporate dealings should be on the level of contracts and rapport. I'd even say a lot of 'professional misconduct' repercussions are actually people acting like emotional people. I've seen management use the 'professionalism' card to counter actions they dislike, and of course they turn a blind eye to unprofessionalism they don't mind or are part of.

Airing one's views is not an entitlement to being human. Do most democratic gov't make an attempt to avoid laws that censor speech? Sure. Do they make laws that provide blanket protection from one's speech. Nope. Not at all.

Being human is very much about control. We wouldn't have civilization without the governing of human behavior through systems like laws and their enforcement. Holding one's tongue isn't unnatural and nothing about consoles or gaming technology makes holding one's tonguei especially hard.

Like it or not, when you are publically linked to a company, what you say publicly can impact that company. Enlightened countries provide whistleblower laws that protect employee speech that shine a light on illegal or bad behaviors of their respective employers. But there shouldn't be any blanket protection because its bound to be abused.

What if this Dice employee comments weren't about the Xbox but rather some racist rants that called for the extermination of non caucasians in Europe. Dice would probably fire him on the spot for preventing any damages his public statements might have on the company. Are you telling me, Dice should be forced to ignore his statements because of his human need to air his views. That Dice should have no recourse because he was being an a-hole on his private time?

Should the PR head of Sony's gaming division be protected from Sony if he/she created a "I love Xbox blog" and constantly commented on how much better the XB1 was over the PS4. His private statements would be the antithesis to his responsibilities at Sony and undermines any positive statement he makes regarding the PS4 in his official role.

There are plenty of logical reasons for companies to expect a level of professionalism when very visible employees are using a public forum such as the internet. There is nothing about consoles or technology in general that warrant special protection under those circumstances.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's very much the same reason we teach our kids to say sorry after they've done something wrong; you need to teach them to empathize.

We teach them to say sorry as cultural programming and to avoid the anger of adults when they don't say sorry. They end up learning to say sorry even when they're not, and the meaning of 'sorry' gets lost, such that a person may say they're sorry to you and they may well be lying. Teaching people to act in ways they don't feel may make things more comfortable, but only if you take everything at face value and don't question motives. It's more important to teach what being sorry means and have them express remorse when they feel it.

Airing one's views is not an entitlement to being human.

It's a natural requirement. How long could anyone stay sane having their opinions and values silenced and having the world see them not for who they are but as a puppet saying only what they are supposed to say? Honesty is fundamental to strong relationships - having people like you for who you are rather than who they think you are based on your (socially enforced) mask.

Being human is very much about control.

It's about a lot more than that! Self control is a part of it. I don't see the need for self control when talking about CE devices any more than talking about football teams or favourite colours.

Like it or not...

Accepting the status quo is very stable but also means injustice can go unchanged. I'm sure back in the day many a woman said, "like it or not, only men get to vote." Along with any number of other accepted practices that we now look upon as archaic. Just because the world is like that, doesn't mean it should be. And open discussion without fear of getting sacked allows us to debate the issue. That's a debate anyone and everyone should be entitled to partake in. Just as it which is the best baseball team in the world, what's the greatest place to go on holiday on a budget, who makes the best mid-range mobile phones, which company bakes the best crumpets, and which console is the more powerful.

What if this Dice employee comments weren't about the Xbox but rather some racist rants that called for the extermination of non caucasians in Europe.

There are only realistically consequences. Like this man received:... Should he be fired? This mans views clearly do not represent his company, but this company does not want to employ a man with these views.

Let's not overreach ourselves. The DICE employee isn't saying anything abusive or controversial. There's a world of difference between spreading hate and having an opinion (on a subject of no importance, contrary to console warriors emotional investment). I haven't said people should be allowed to voice opinions with no consequences. All I've called for is balance between the work place and personal lives, such that work doesn't take a controlling stake in one's social activities. If it becomes apparent that an employee isn't the right kind of employee (caught dealing drugs, say), the company has a right to terminate within the rules of employment (in the UK it's actually quite hard to fire people outright in principle). But they shouldn't stop people talking about everyday views in their own space. A Sony employee shouldn't face a disciplinary when they buy an LG TV from Amazon and press the Facebook notification, suggesting Sony themselves prefer other manufacturers devices. Casual conversation shouldn't be denied, nor held to a ridiculous level of scrutiny such that a person needs to pass everything they type past a lawyer before determining if someone might find it disagreeable (and everything will be found disagreeable by someone somewhere!)[/quote]

 

[dobwal]

It's a natural requirement. How long could anyone stay sane having their opinions and values silenced and having the world see them not for who they are but as a puppet saying only what they are supposed to say? Honesty is fundamental to strong relationships - having people like you for who you are rather than who they think you are based on your (socially enforced) mask.

It's about a lot more than that! Self control is a part of it. I don't see the need for self control when talking about CE devices any more than talking about football teams or favourite colours.

Most normal people know when to STFU as evidence by the lack of employees openly castrating their employers on the internet while everyone else jumps off cliffs because their inability to inform a bunch of people they don't know about their workplace.

Restricting what you say in a public forum is not going to lead to most people losing their sanity. We all have the ability to express ourselves as much and how we want in private. Doing it public just requires some management in what you say and how you say it. Humans have been doing this for thousand of years and civilization hasn't broken down yet.

Accepting the status quo is very stable but also means injustice can go unchanged.

Freely making statements about consoles isn't some exercise in justice. No one is going to take up arms of it, line up in front some gov't building to protest or engage in any level of civil disobedience over the matter. People are perfectly willing to challenge injustices in the face of being on the wrong side of the law if what they are fighting for has merit.

Let's not overreach ourselves...

My statement isn't about what the Dice employee said, its about your assertion that employees should be protected for their public statements during their off hours. I provided extreme examples where it plainfully obvious that level of protection can do way more harm than good. Dice is a company composed a bunch of employees who salaries help maintains hundreds to thousands of lives, one person with blanket protection and no fear of reprisal could potentially have drastic consequences on a number of families if that person's words lead to appreciable effect on Dice's bottom line.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Nobody heard of Glassdoor?? You can actually say what you want about your employer. Isn't that essentially freedom of speech?

That's completely public and allows people to say what they want. Is that whole site "unprofessional" now? Or does it give an employer (or hardware manufacturer) chance to improve in the future?

 

[Deleted member 86764]

It's all well and good being upset when someone says something bad about something you love, but it's also completely within the law. If an employer fires you for voicing your opinions, you're actually in a better position in a court than your employer. That's fact.

People here might not like it, but that's the way it is. This dude hasn't said anything too bad, try not to get too upset.


Edit: this guy certainly didn't shout FHRITP. Let's get a grip guys.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Frostbite technical director was kinda unprofessional too already in 2013 (he is Swedish too) :

He's talking about near-hardware (low level) APIs. DICE probably knew about DirectX12 heading for Xbox One but they sure as hell couldn't mention it in 2013.

 

[dobwal]

Nobody heard of Glassdoor?? You can actually say what you want about your employer. Isn't that essentially freedom of speech?

That's completely public and allows people to say what they want. Is that whole site "unprofessional" now? Or does it give an employer (or hardware manufacturer) chance to improve in the future?

Glassdoor is an anonymous site. Its relation to free speech is probably the inability for companies to get gov'ts to pass laws that de-anonymized profiles for sites like these for the strict purpose of retaliation.