Formula 1 - 2010 Season

[Phil]

That has always been the case in F1. Team orders have always been a part of the game. It doesn't give any team the right to break a rule, but when a rule is not enforced it should be removed.

Surely, as long as the rule still stands though, it should and must be obeyed? If not, why have rules in the first place?

There are various rules in this years formula 1 season. Some make sense, some don't. As an example: The rule about having to use two different tyre compounds. It's there and beyond for enhancing the "show" (which in turn makes the race more interesting, which in turn increases viewers and ultimately revenues which is why it's good for F1), there isn't much need for it. The same applies to the rule 39.1, which is for banning team-orders. It may not make sense to have it in light of it being a team sport, but it's there to serve a purpose.

If a team doesn't abide by it, it should be punished. Fair and simple.

I'm not arguing this because it's Ferrari, I'm arguing this because it's something that other teams so far have respected and Ferrari by not doing so, have gained a bit of an advantage. Even further, I'd go as far to say it's not the best sportsmanship behaviour and wasn't necessary, given both Massas and Alonsos position in the WDC standings and the stage we are at.

Alonso's behaviour over mic, nor Ferrari's outright criticism about staged and manipulated races doesn't really help their cause one bit.

 

[Bludd]

Surely, as long as the rule still stands though, it should and must be obeyed? If not, why have rules in the first place?

There are various rules in this years formula 1 season. Some make sense, some don't. As an example: The rule about having to use two different tyre compounds. It's there and beyond for enhancing the "show" (which in turn makes the race more interesting, which in turn increases viewers and ultimately revenues which is why it's good for F1), there isn't much need for it. The same applies to the rule 39.1, which is for banning team-orders. It may not make sense to have it in light of it being a team sport, but it's there to serve a purpose.

If a team doesn't abide by it, it should be punished. Fair and simple.

I'm not arguing this because it's Ferrari, I'm arguing this because it's something that other teams so far have respected and Ferrari by not doing so, have gained a bit of an advantage. Even further, I'd go as far to say it's not the best sportsmanship behaviour and wasn't necessary, given both Massas and Alonsos position in the WDC standings and the stage we are at.

Alonso's behaviour over mic, nor Ferrari's outright criticism about staged and manipulated races doesn't really help their cause one bit.

Yes, but I am trying to move the discussion beyond the fact that they broke the rule and on to that the rule as it stands is bad.

Nevertheless, they have been punished and they may be further punished in the WMSC session in September, but I think there will be a discussion about the rule itself up to and during that meeting.

 

[infinity4]

Even Kimi needed Massa's help to get those 2 vital points to win the championship.

The real question is - what if Massa loses the championship this year because of those points?

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

What if a meteor crashes into his car and makes him lose the wdc? There is no point in what if's. The fact is he has less points and has been underpeforming alonso for most of the season. If you start thinking like that you could include many other things that could have lost Massa the wdc even if he had those points from winning. For example the reliability problems at the beginning of the season or him struggling with the hard tyre this season. Or do it the other way around: What if alonso would lose because of Massa not letting him pass? You could go on forever like this and end up with every choice being the wrong one. The fact is that in the most likely case Alonso is the one with the biggest chance.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Yes, but I am trying to move the discussion beyond the fact that they broke the rule and on to that the rule as it stands is bad.

There are a lot of rules that many think are bad, and even worse than this one that I doubt will be changed. Mandatory 2 different tire compounds. Minimum distance between bottom of car and road to reduce the effects of ground effect. Yada yada yada. This is no different, and is perhaps the least offensive and most clear of all the rules.

Enforcement needs to be uniform however.

Man how I wish for the days long gone. The last top gear episode had a tribute to Senna. I forgot how exciting it was to see drivers live on the edge of tractiong with the back end almost popping completely loose even on straight aways as drivers worked to keep application of power and acceleration in line with available grip.

F1 is relatively boring now-days, IMO. Forcing no team orders is an attempt to at least inject some more excitement into a boring 1-2 race between guys on the same team that have orders that one guy MUST win. If one team has a dominant car, at least allow the two drivers of those cars fight it out.

In other word, team orders are great for the constructors and the absolute most boring and frustrating thing for a fan.

Regards,
SB

 

[Colourless]

Exactly what I feel. The problem with the team order is as a spectator, you don't see the fight between the no 1 and no 2 driver in a team.

 

[infinity4]

What if a meteor crashes into his car and makes him lose the wdc? There is no point in what if's. The fact is he has less points and has been underpeforming alonso for most of the season. If you start thinking like that you could include many other things that could have lost Massa the wdc even if he had those points from winning. For example the reliability problems at the beginning of the season or him struggling with the hard tyre this season. Or do it the other way around: What if alonso would lose because of Massa not letting him pass? You could go on forever like this and end up with every choice being the wrong one. The fact is that in the most likely case Alonso is the one with the biggest chance.

Well, we don't know anything, and decision was made based on that simply because Alonso had more points. But there is still far to go through the remaining races, and all it takes is a retirement for Alonso to ruin everything, so I don't think people would have been complaining if it was close to end of the season.

 

[Davros]

Man how I wish for the days long gone.

Say it after me "we dont need no stinkeen downforce"
also drivers today are too boring, all drivers must before getting their superlicence attend the Eddie Ervine school of diplomacy, sport a handlebar moustache(ala graham hill) wear a smoking jacket and smoke a pipe while driving...

 

[Billy Idol]

Who is faster is absolutely not relevenat. Massa was in front and he put himself into that position and deserves a right to fight for his position. It was his position and it was up to Alonso to fight for it, not the other way around.

The rules (39.1) are clear:
"Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited"

Black on white. There are no ifs, no buts.

Even if there is some merit to why a team as Ferrari might want to break that rule, it still is against the rule. If we didn't have this rule, we'd more likely have Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso fighting for the championship alone, rather than Hamilton, Button, Webber, Vettel and Alonso. In fact, RedBull has every right to be vocal on the subject, after all, they ultimately sacrificied a certain 1-2 in Turkey by having both their drivers collide which would have been avoidable if they could have dictated Webber to move over as cleanly as Massa just did on Sunday.

I find it especially all the more amusing after Alonso's talk about "manipulated race" in Valencia. Oh the irony...

We don't want manipulated races and we certainly don't want justification for what might spice up the championship race. We already had the politics in 2008. Alonso put himself in a difficult position to fight for the championship and in insight after his jump start and other mistakes on the track - he has only himself to blame for.

Well said!!
I perfectly agree with you on this!

It is a rule, and all teams have to follow it. If it is so plain obvious, the must be brutally punished so that it hurts them!!

The only other possibility is to allow team order - I am fine with this as well, but then they should accept that F1 gets even more tactical and that the driving on track gets even more in the background...as I said, I am fine with this as well.

But the last Sunday is just ridiculous and and is not the F1 I want to see!!

 

[Phil]

Yes, but I am trying to move the discussion beyond the fact that they broke the rule and on to that the rule as it stands is bad.

Fair enough, and IMO I think that the rule being bad is very debatable.

If we go back to when the rule was introduced, it was done ultimately because the way Ferrari handled the situation with Rubens and Michael caused an uproar among all the fans and media, eventhough at the time, it was perfectly legitimate.

Due to the uproar (and perhaps because everyone was getting tired of Michaels/Ferraris dominance in F1) they needed to make a change and rule 39.1 came to life.

Ultimately, the rules are dictated by what people want to see. Formula 1 can only be as successfull as the sport is among the people that watch it, attend races and generate the revenue. Without spectators, there are no sponsors which are an essential part of F1.

While you and others might think you're looking at the bigger picture when stating that it's a teamsport and that a team including it's drivers should play to that, there's an even bigger picture at hand.

Judging by the uproar in the media with the Ferrari fiasco at Hockenheim, one can only assume what people want to see: Fairplay, a real race and equal chances among drivers. Realisticly, this isn't going to happen to the fullest - you'll always have a certain degree of favouritism in teams (Vettel/Webber), but team orders where a team orders one of its drivers to give up his position in favour of his most direct competitor is one step further and IMO too far. This can not be good for the sport ultimately.

There's a good write-up by Joe Saward (actually two) that touches on the subject:

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/some-thoughts-before-hitting-the-road/

(and to a lesser degree: http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/07/25/fernandos-biggest-mistake/)

IMHO, the best thing about this years season has been the competition between Button and Hamilton, Vettel and Webber and to some extend Schumacher and Rosberg. The challenge between two drivers in identical cars. This has also led to an extremely close race between at least 5 drivers (4 of those among the same team) - something we haven't had for a long time.

 

[Bludd]

The flexing front wings of Red Bull and Ferrari are interesting. You can really see it on the on-board of the Red Bulls in P1 when they brake from high speed, the end-plates just pop up. Red Bull must have perfected it a while ago, when did Ferrari get this?

 

[RobertR1]

Holy shit at the Red Bulls. Only a Turn 1 disaster can ruin this for them and mech issues. Ouch at Schumi.

 

[Bludd]

Those Red Bulls are insane. Pure, unadulterated insanity.

Hopefully Alonso can fight them in the race and maybe the Red Bulls will have bad starts again.

McLaren are struggling a lot and so is Schumi. Congratulations to Petrov for outqualifying Kubica for the first time.

 

[RobertR1]

hahaahahah I love Schumacher. He's such a dick!

 

[Phil]

Impressive drive from Webber, stupid mistake from Vettel, unlucky Hamilton, strong performance from Ferrari, happy day for Sauber and a big surprise from Petrov sums it up for me. Also happy to see there were no major injuries from that flying tyre. Very lucky!

In related news, Autosport reports that the FIA is to ramp up its wing tests for the Belgian GP. This means that the tests will no longer be limited to testing the load at 50kg but a 100. At this test, the wing is not allowed to flex more than 20mm.

Link: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85817

 

[Tahir2]

Awesome race from Webber and Alonso did well to hold off an angry Vettel.

I would say, regarding the Schumacher move, that Rubens has finally gotten a bit of revenge on Schumi by making him look like a rank amateur but I am glad they didn't have a major incident.

I was in Budapest last week on an extended weekend break and I have to say it is a magnificent and beautiful city.

 

[Bludd]

Schumacher closing the door like that was terrible. Watching it on-board with Rubinho had me with my heart in my throat.

Vettel can't convert pole positions, but this time it was because of a silly mistake. Alonso defended well, kept his cool. Congrats to Petrov and Hulkenberg, the Saubers and Barrichello.

I hope in Spa the Red Bull won't be so supreme, because this was insane. Luckily we got some incidents to spice up the race and having Vettel behind Alonso was very tense for me.

Driver of the day? Webber, those laps he pulled when the SC came in were beautiful. I was sitting there hoping Alonso could keep the gap below 19s but Webber just took that race by the horns.

Mercedes GP is the villain of the day, dangerous flying wheel and crazy move by Schumacher.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

lol the move Schumacher did was exactly the same as Vettel did a week ago on Alonso and we've seen moves like this more than once this season.

 

[Bludd]

Joe Saward is reporting that Michael Schumacher is going to have a 10 point grid penalty in the next race.

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2010/08/01/schumacher-is-caned-by-the-fia/

Well deserved.

 

[Dave Baumann]

That image is nuts.